Shovel and a pry bar.

 

Why do you think you have to be beyond the theoretical frost depth? - That is for buildings to prevent structural damage in the next 100 years or so. A fence is a different matter and I have never seen a highway built with structural supports down below our 4 or 5 feet unless it is deep pile to find solid ground for bearing. Gradual vertical movement can be very acceptable.

For fences is is a matter of differential post movement and aesthetic purposes. The ground freezes from the top down and a rough dug hole has a better chance of heaving when the wider top portion pulls upward than being forced up from the bottom.

 

I see you have never went out to do a fence replacement because the posts have heaved. In Michigan if you don't go below 42"s the posts will heave in a few years.

As for the original question if their is concrete in the holes then we use small electric jack hammers. We also use cut off digging bars and sledge hammers. I have been known to use a hammer on a mini excavator. Just depends on what is in the ground.
The worst is 10" thick roots. You then need to get a gas powered drill and drill a ton of 1 1/2" holes in the root and then get a cutting torch and burn it out.

 

What kind of fence needs posts set deeper than 24"?

 

frost hits 6' here sometimes.

a 2' deep fence will be on a 45degree angle in the spring :laughing:

 

Why sub it out? We have always dug our own holes.

 

Generally have better paying work for my carpenters or myself than digging holes.

I have dug PLENTY of footers, ditches, sump pump holes, peirs and fence holes, but not anxious to do it or have my guys do it for more money than I can sub it for, unless I'm slow. Then its dig, baby, dig or kick rocks :thumbsup:

 

Why dont you dig the holes yourself. If the guy was hitting rock or concrete he most likely stopped before he damaged his machine. You have any idea what teeth cost for a auger? Its just common sense to stop when you aint making any progress. Are you willing to pay for any damages that occur to his equipment?

 

Not trying to be mean but if you cant figure out how to dig a hole then what are you doing in this business?
I always have a clause in the contract that states extra charges may apply if I hit anything other than dirt.

 

Around here the ground gets so hard and dry that at times have to dig the hole some then pour water in it to loosen it up.

 

Another trick I have used,say 2' is all you can go,I take a hammer drill with say 1/2" bit,drill 4-5 holes inside the main hole about another 18-24" before you pour the water. Come back next day,the soil will come out like warm butter.:thumbsup:

 

Just make a youtube video of how bad of a contractor he is. :whistling

What do you do if he can't get past 2 feet? Is this your first rodeo?

 

The thing that bugs me about this kind of thread is that most likely, the only reason you have this job is because you under bid a company that knows how to get those holes dug.

 

frost hits 6' here sometimes.

a 2' deep fence will be on a 45degree angle in the spring :laughing:

Interesting. So a normal privacy fence gets 6' post holes...? Or a metal pipe fence?

Serious question.

I'm not familiar with standard post hole specifications north of the Mason-Dixon Line. Lol.

 

Official frost line here is 48"
Worst case scenario I try to get 42"

3' is standard here. I'm not sure if the extra 12"" is worth it, but it is a good selling feature. And my fences are all perfectly straight after several harsh canadian winters.

 

Around here there is limestome 12-30" below grade. A regular auger won't cut it, guys use a Beltec type auger.

 

This is just my personal view on fences.....why dig a hole at all?

Drive a pipe into the ground, add brackets, and be done. I say this after building many wood and metal fences that have survived the winds we get All your doing is taking a post and increasing its diameter by whatever hole size you dug

 

He was saying there is concrete or patio slabs buried along the property line which I find hard to believe, I would never recommend using this guy to anyone, headache from day 1.

I need to know what I have to do to dig the full 4 feet below frost line,

What do you have to dig through? If it's busted up concrete used as site fill, or ledge, or any of the other large rock - like things, you're going o be drilling rock.

 

Was he hitting shale or something similar?

Most of the time on building foundations, the geotechnical engineer will approve a footing going down to shale or sandstone when it is hit above the frost line.

 

If the auger wont do it, hoe ram on a skid steer or jack hammer to get 24", no frost line, lots of dolamite and granite. If you widen the bottom out and pour concrete that SOB will never come out in hard ground.

 

Just did a deck with 12 holes. Spent three days with three guys digging these with a two man auger, post hole shovels and our bare hands. Never again. Found a guy who will come in and do that many holes plus break up and hall of a concrete patio for $600.

We hit nothing but rocks and debris.

As for fences we don't have to go below the frost line. Here the frost line is 42". Fences can be at 24". Never had a problem with a fence. My fence is three years old and straight as an arrow.

 

Just did a deck with 12 holes. Spent three days with three guys digging these with a two man auger, post hole shovels and our bare hands. Never again. Found a guy who will come in and do that many holes plus break up and hall of a concrete patio for $600.

We hit nothing but rocks and debris.

As for fences we don't have to go below the frost line. Here the frost line is 42". Fences can be at 24". Never had a problem with a fence. My fence is three years old and straight as an arrow.

Here in Colorado, our experience is same as TNT.

Our footings go to 48", but a fence is fine at 24.... dig it straight... or sono tube it....so you do not have frost heave lift.

TNT... We have some difficult digging here... and generally will go with a one man auger.... if the slope is not too difficult.... costs a little more on trhe rental... but I think is a lot easier once you get it in place...

Best

 

Pretty country. Have some friends in Austin. Comparable to here. Lakes and all.

 

Lived in Wyandotte , near Miami for a year when I was 8. On the Spring River. Fun checking limb lines every evening :thumbsup:

 

That's a pretty good ways away from me. I'm bout 15 minutes from Texas and 20 from Arkansas.

 

Frost line here is 36". We always "bell" our holes to prevent heaving. Never have I poured a hole that was a straight cylindrical shape.

This method is great, especially when reaching the frost line depth turns into loosing money.

 

Frost line here is 36". We always "bell" our holes to prevent heaving. Never have I poured a hole that was a straight cylindrical shape.

This method is great, especially when reaching the frost line depth turns into loosing money.

Max.... We really never bother belling a fence post hole, (assuming we're not below the frost line) as there realy is no bearing/loading issue.

If we are not going below the frost line for a fence, our experience is to pour as smooth (non-rough or belled) pier, under the logic that we don't want to create ledges/bells/roughness for the frozen earth to lift up on.

Seems to work around here....... Now deck piers or loaded piers we bell or big foot all the time.... but thse are always below the frost line.

Best

 

ok so no-one wants to say why a post needs to be in concrete?


frostlines I get but I'd like to learn why setting in concrete is better the a simple piledrive. ( mind you im not talking about a wooden post but metal since no wood should be ground contact let alone underground) Think bout it you do a slab you need foam and treated for bottem plate so why build a fence post with wood????

 

If we don't have ground contact posts. Most of the time we don't. We paint the buried portion of the post with tar set it on pea gravel for drainage. This helps prolong the life of the posts.
If the ground is stable enough I will pile drive steel post. Where we do most of our fence work the ground is mostly a sand mixture. We drill 6" holes 48" deep and pour at least one bag of concrete in the hole.

 

The reason i have such an issue with augering a hole and doing cement is:
I see many loose posts on privacy (wood) fences and they lean plenty more so then when I piledrive a HD corner post (Dont use cheap pipe). The cost is about the same in the end


When i first moved to NM We built a 6ft u- panel (solid metal sheet) fence around a place, Its survived 80 mph straight line winds and a tornado, Meanwhile my parents fence built right before that I used the same posts in concrete and its loose luckly the wood shrunks so some air gets thru it bit it gets a pretty wicked wave. I have to water and hit around the concrete with the compactor

 

The reason i have such an issue with augering a hole and doing cement is:
I see many loose posts on privacy (wood) fences and they lean plenty more so then when I piledrive a HD corner post (Dont use cheap pipe). The cost is about the same in the end

From what I've seen, different things work best in different situations. Cement makes some situations better, but most of the time it isn't needed. If you need a lager diameter in the ground to handle side loads, cement is an OK way to do this, whether it's a wood post or a steel one. How deep I set a post depends a lot on local conditions. Expansive clay is one of the worst, but bogs pretty much take the prize.

Pipes go in real fast compared to wood, no matter the conditions. If you have an auger and decent soil conditions, wood posts work well.

 

A post surrounded by tightly packed gravel will last longer than one in concrete. Almost every broken fence post I have seen has rotted off right at the concrete. That's because water can and will get in between the concrete and the post, and cause rot. Gravel allows drainage.

And in the event that a post does get loose or needs to be removed....it's a lot easier to remove/reset.

I live on a farm and we have quite a bit of fence...

 

Why not just dig a bigger hole and place a X shaped piece of PS lumber for the post to sit on after you lag bolt into place?

Its a very common practice around here with bedrock 4 feet deep.

 

We just did a 180 foot fence had a few that where only 36 to 40 inches just couldn't get any deeper. We ran into old fence posts buried ect but alls well that ends well

 

Years ago I built a corral that was on top of bedrock . Took a hour or two to get the hole with a jack hammer , but boy was that one solid fence when got done.