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Finish Carpenter
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So i have these doors...

They are weathered bad. The panels are warped like crazy and the finish is all but missing. It's red oak. We will make all new moldings. New panels as well, but they will be Extira MDF with 1/4 inch wood skins.

House Dollhouse Room Home Building



Yellow

For finishing my plan was staining with Target Coatings Ultima WR Waterborne Linseed Oil Stains and top coat with Target Coatings EM9300 Polycarbonate Urethane. That was untill I asked Target about the stains UV resistance...which isn't high enough for this application.

So I started calling around and even Sherwin Williams Product Finishes didn't have a stain they reccomemded. I finally found Old Masters wiping and gel stains are. So I will be trying them, but what do you guys use?
 

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Any Old Master stain I've used has been an interior product but my experience with them have been good.
 

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Finish Carpenter
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

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So i have these doors...

They are weathered bad. The panels are warped like crazy and the finish is all but missing. It's red oak. We will make all new moldings. New panels as well, but they will be Extira MDF with 1/4 inch wood skins.

View attachment 112140



View attachment 112141

For finishing my plan was staining with Target Coatings Ultima WR Waterborne Linseed Oil Stains and top coat with Target Coatings EM9300 Polycarbonate Urethane. That was untill I asked Target about the stains UV resistance...which isn't high enough for this application.

So I started calling around and even Sherwin Williams Product Finishes didn't have a stain they reccomemded. I finally found Old Masters wiping and gel stains are. So I will be trying them, but what do you guys use?
Not sure if you saw this but it appears Extira does not recommend stains used for coloring as they all need to be transparent or semi transparent to some degree and this is probably why SW and others cannot recommend a product.
http://www.extira.com/wp-content/uploads/Extira_Using-Finishing-and-Adhesives.pdf

Personally I would skip MDF altogether for exterior door panels and especially one surrounded by that much concrete and stone. I would look for an outlet that has slabs of red oak and even though the initial raw material cost may be a little higher the pay off is you wont be back in 8 months to look at more warps and an unhappy client.

I appreciate companies offering synthetic alternatives but there are limits and at the end of the day it is us in the field who take the blame if we do not install the correct materials. Ive had clients who insisted I use the materials of their choosing but they are required to sign a disclaimer that they were advised against those materials and we are not responsible for any performance failures.
 

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Finish Carpenter
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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Not sure if you saw this but it appears Extira does not recommend stains used for coloring as they all need to be transparent or semi transparent to some degree and this is probably why SW and others cannot recommend a product.
http://www.extira.com/wp-content/uploads/Extira_Using-Finishing-and-Adhesives.pdf

Personally I would skip MDF altogether for exterior door panels and especially one surrounded by that much concrete and stone. I would look for an outlet that has slabs of red oak and even though the initial raw material cost may be a little higher the pay off is you wont be back in 8 months to look at more warps and an unhappy client.

I appreciate companies offering synthetic alternatives but there are limits and at the end of the day it is us in the field who take the blame if we do not install the correct materials. Ive had clients who insisted I use the materials of their choosing but they are required to sign a disclaimer that they were advised against those materials and we are not responsible for any performance failures.
The panels are built with wood veneers. The Extira see no finish (except for the "end grain" which will be sealed). It is okay to laminate wood to the Extira, and the reason we are doing so is to limit movement. The Extira is covered in 1/4 inch oak skins. The panels used to be solid oak and warped horribly. The photo shows both the left and right panels sitting on top of each other.



I sanded and stained the jambs today.





Have you experienced quality longevity with these compounds? Ive used them but they do not seem to leave a trusting finish for a long period of time.
So far I have not found anything better besides CPES with a varnish topcoat, and that topic is being debated by the marine crowd. I don't think any transparent finish out doors will last long, but if that is the look they want, there is no reason they can't have it. I just remind them that they need to keep an eye on the finish and when they see it start to chalk or crack, they need to call us to come over to scuff and recoat before the finish starts being rejected.

I have settled on The Old Masters Gel Stain with 5 or 6 coats of EM9300 poly-carbonate urethane.
 

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The panels are built with wood veneers. The Extira see no finish (except for the "end grain" which will be sealed). It is okay to laminate wood to the Extira, and the reason we are doing so is to limit movement. The Extira is covered in 1/4 inch oak skins. The panels used to be solid oak and warped horribly. The photo shows both the left and right panels sitting on top of each other.



I sanded and stained the jambs today.







So far I have not found anything better besides CPES with a varnish topcoat, and that topic is being debated by the marine crowd. I don't think any transparent finish out doors will last long, but if that is the look they want, there is no reason they can't have it. I just remind them that they need to keep an eye on the finish and when they see it start to chalk or crack, they need to call us to come over to scuff and recoat before the finish starts being rejected.

I have settled on The Old Masters Gel Stain with 5 or 6 coats of EM9300 poly-carbonate urethane.

The color is beautiful and the doors will look awesome. Is the riser in direct contact with the concrete floor? If so it would be best to install a buffer or the direct contact will cause the stain/seal to fail prematurely.

It seems the goal was to install material that would not warp over the long term and since the oak warped it appeared to be the wrong material. From my experience the only reason the oak warped is because the panels/doors were not properly sealed.

Please understand I am not saying I know better than anyone but simply offering an opinion based on empirical evidence. Extira is made up of 90% wood so it will contract and expand. The oak skin will also contract and expand but at a different rate which means the two pieces will be in contention no matter what sealer is used. The extira warranty is voided by this method of installation because the panels will warp prematurely since the raw joint between the oak and extira will likely be the starting point of the warping and extira requires any installation of its product to be primed and sealed.

I would have used a solid piece of oak and made sure the entire door and panel butts were free of any air gaps, stained, and then applied 7-9 coats of spar urethane. The spar is flexible enough to contract with the wood and strong enough to keep moisture out.

Hope this works out for you and I could be 100% wrong but I am always trying to learn new methods as well.
 

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Finish Carpenter
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The color is beautiful and the doors will look awesome. Is the riser in direct contact with the concrete floor? If so it would be best to install a buffer or the direct contact will cause the stain/seal to fail prematurely.

It seems the goal was to install material that would not warp over the long term and since the oak warped it appeared to be the wrong material. From my experience the only reason the oak warped is because the panels/doors were not properly sealed.

Please understand I am not saying I know better than anyone but simply offering an opinion based on empirical evidence. Extira is made up of 90% wood so it will contract and expand. The oak skin will also contract and expand but at a different rate which means the two pieces will be in contention no matter what sealer is used. The extira warranty is voided by this method of installation because the panels will warp prematurely since the raw joint between the oak and extira will likely be the starting point of the warping and extira requires any installation of its product to be primed and sealed.

I would have used a solid piece of oak and made sure the entire door and panel butts were free of any air gaps, stained, and then applied 7-9 coats of spar urethane. The spar is flexible enough to contract with the wood and strong enough to keep moisture out.

Hope this works out for you and I could be 100% wrong but I am always trying to learn new methods as well.
Well I do appreciate your input, so don't get me wrong. :thumbsup:

The riser is not only in direct contact with the concrete, but the concrete was installed after, so it actually down below...:censored: I am just going to re finish it, use OSI QUAD on it and tell them it could be a problem, but its been there for about 10 years IIRC. I would suggest they replace it with Miratec or Boral TruExterior trim and paint it the same color as the stain, no one will notice and it won't rot.

I have sent an e-mail to JeldWin to confirm that what we did with the skins is okay, but everything I am reading on their webpage says it is.

"Adhesives or laminates
may be used to affix other materials to Extira"
http://www.extira.com/wp-content/uploads/Extira-4-Page-Brochure.pdf

Acording to this, you use TiteBond2 for Extira to wood veneering...which is what we did...except we used TiteBond 3.:blink:

http://www.extira.com/wp-content/uploads/Extira_Using-Finishing-and-Adhesives.pdf

So we will see what JeldWin Says.
 

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Well I do appreciate your input, so don't get me wrong. :thumbsup:

The riser is not only in direct contact with the concrete, but the concrete was installed after, so it actually down below...:censored: I am just going to re finish it, use OSI QUAD on it and tell them it could be a problem, but its been there for about 10 years IIRC. I would suggest they replace it with Miratec or Boral TruExterior trim and paint it the same color as the stain, no one will notice and it won't rot.

I have sent an e-mail to JeldWin to confirm that what we did with the skins is okay, but everything I am reading on their webpage says it is.

"Adhesives or laminates
may be used to affix other materials to Extira"
http://www.extira.com/wp-content/uploads/Extira-4-Page-Brochure.pdf

Acording to this, you use TiteBond2 for Extira to wood veneering...which is what we did...except we used TiteBond 3.:blink:

http://www.extira.com/wp-content/uploads/Extira_Using-Finishing-and-Adhesives.pdf

So we will see what JeldWin Says.
This is what I saw at the bottom of the JW link:

"Because JELD-WEN, inc.
makes wood composite panels and not adhesives, primers or other
materials, it cannot guarantee the performance or compatibility of any
material to Extira."

I do not doubt the quality of the adhesive but am only concerned about the idea if the Extira is laminated with oak skin it will somehow prevent or impede warping. If the Extira was attached directly to the oak without priming and sealing then I predict the Extira will begin separating from the oak skin because the different materials will expand at different rates and strengths.

Water vapor is a beootch and one lesson Ive learn the very hard way is we cannot change the nature of the materials we use and can only guarantee so much. This door will be experiencing huge temperature swings between the interior and exterior and these swings are what help create the warping as the vapor will travel through the oak and extira.

Maybe someone else can give some insight as I can only share my limited experiences. I did have a similar project a few years ago that consisted of dual open barn doors and each were 9'x4' in size that were exposed to direct sunlight on average 6 hours a day. The barn was all concrete so the air temp swings were brutal. I went with solid doors, stained them, and then applied at least 7 coats of spar. They have to be recoated with spar every two to three years but they aren't warping.

Hope it works well for you and hopefully someone else can chime in as Im sure there are guys with more experience than I.
 

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Finish Carpenter
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I believe that is about them saying they are not adhesive manufacturers so while they say you can use these adhesives, they won't guarantee the listed adhesives will bond the two. Basically, hey we recommend this, but check with the adhesive company for more concrete data.
 

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Finish Carpenter
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The reply wasn't filled with details but I am satisfied. I did mention the "veneer" was 1/4 inch thick.


Tom,



Thanks for using Extira(R) Composite Panels. Yes, Titebond 3 should work well to laminate the oak veneer to Extira as well as laminating Extira to Extira.



Thanks,





Mike Steiber

Director of Technical Sales
 

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Nice work Tom , nice before and after pics . Any future customers see those photos would make it easy for them to choose you . :thumbsup:
 
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