[Carpenter442]

Hey guys how are you? I am a custom finish carpenter in Michigan for the past 17 years and am taking the leap on my own! The jobs I have to bid right now are from high end reputable builders. I have been trimming for a long time but to sure how to bid. This particular job is 10,000 sq. of living space. 8' solid core doors, casing with backband and plinth blocks, 4 piece base (no shoe so must be scribed), 2 piece crown, 2 story wainscoting, mantles, crawfords etc...... Any tips? Please help.
Thanks!

 

[Spencer]

Hey guys how are you? I am a custom finish carpenter in Michigan for the past 17 years and am taking the leap on my own! The jobs I have to bid right now are from high end reputable builders. I have been trimming for a long time but to sure how to bid. This particular job is 10,000 sq. of living space. 8' solid core doors, casing with backband and plinth blocks, 4 piece base (no shoe so must be scribed), 2 piece crown, 2 story wainscoting, mantles, crawfords etc...... Any tips? Please help.
Thanks!

That is going to be really tough to bid that type of job starting out. Its one thing to be able to do the work, another to put together an accurate bid on something like that.

Labor on things like 8' doors increases exponentially. Much more of a pain. Makes moving them into a two man job unless you want to kill yourself.

If I was you I would pull a Trump and make a deal. See if you can work out a deal where you are working cost plus or an hourly rate. If you're a tradesman of integrity everyone wins because on a job that size someone is almost always going to end up losing, especially if you don't have years of bidding under your belt.

The other thing that can exponentially change how long a job takes is how organized the builder is and how the HO is in regards to making decisions and needing hands held.

I did a similar job this summer. I was there almost five months and there were other trim guys there as well. Had over $60k of labor just on my end. Total the job was over $250k in trim/trim labor. Hard to give an accurate bid on that size job unless you can just shoot for the stars and get the job.

As a part of your deal with the builder you might offer to give an estimate on money and schedule. This way he can see how long you think it should take and what you think it SHOULD cost before the project begins. It will also give you something that will keep you motivated as it is really easy to get overwhelmed on jobs of that size.

 

[pappagor]

as spencer said or pass on it and do one you know something about.

 

[Metro M & L]

Im going to split from the crowd and say it is absolutely critical that you bid this job, bid it right and knock the work out of the park.

As is a mantra on here you need to read markup and profit. Primary idea being price points should be determined off of annual figures. Determine what you want to make for the year, determine your annual overhead, determine profit for the company so you have money to grow the business, then divide by the number of days youre going to work. The answer is what you need to charge per day to stay in business.

Shooting from the hip and acknowledging that standard of living and individual circumstances vary, you probably should be bringing in at least 500$ a day to have a reasonable middle class life. Thats not pure profit, just gross labor sales for one man per day.

 

[NYC_Line7]

break it down into manpower + material cost first.

Figure out how much you want to make for yourself per day/per hour, etc., Im sure you already have a helper and know how much that will cost.

As an experienced carpenter you already know from experience how long each particular activity takes, ie: how long to hang a door, or how long to hang 60' feet of moulding, or if it has many corners, etc.

Try to break up the job into small activities and try to visualize the job. Contact your suppliers, make a materials list, hardware, consumables, etc.

Don't forget about figuring in profit for your company. Your company is paying you as a tradesman, if thats all thats going into your pocket, your company is not making money, nobody works for free.

Figure in worst case scenarios: What if your supplier is late on materials delivery, those doors are not in stock, and you have to sit around doing punchlist work for 2 weeks. Can you still make it happen and walk away with money in your pocket?

Dont forget the money you spend on fuel, tolls, etc.

Read up some threads here in the Business section. Definitely have a contract, search here.

For your first job you should bid relatively high to have yourself a cushion.

As far as estimating what its gonna cost you, make a list on a paper, sit down and think and try to visualize the job.

As far as presenting the bid to the homeowner, you can break it down into linear feet quantities for the base and crown, price for single items such as a mantle, and include that in your contract.

 

[CITY DECKS INC]

What's wrong with good ole fashioned t/m.... With min to ball park max / cap. That way it's win win and you can learn with eating poop.

 

[92island]

I had a similar problem starting out at first. I was lucky enough to get lineal foot, door and project prices from a carpenter I worked with that went off on his own years ago. These prices are accurate and competitive for this area and I've learned to trust them completely. Problem is you'll need to get through a bunch of jobs to be able to get your numbers. I keep every receipt for every job to keep my numbers of what things cost me to build and with every job my numbers become more accurate. Until then, figure out what you need to make a day to cover your wage plus overhead and helper etc. and ask for days rate. This way you won't end up working for 6 months for free when your done. Just don't lose the fire under your ass because your a daily rate and lose your repore with contractor. Once you get a good price sheet you'll be able to work without sweating this stuff and bidding time is cut down significantly.

 

[greg24k]

Gotta love this magic moments :laughing:

 

[Gatorgrizz27]

First, break the overall job into individual parts, which should be obvious.
There are usually three ways I bid a job, depending on what it is.

The first is by estimated or actual time, either daily or hourly. This works well for things where you don't know exactly how long it will take you, or if you will run into extra issues. On things like decks I give them my "daily rate" and tell them I expect it will take 4-5 days, etc. Make sure you are there on time and don't leave early, don't give them a reason to feel cheated. For more detail oriented jobs like wood rot or siding repair, just bill it hourly.

The second way is by square or linear foot, if you know exactly what you're getting in to. This is good for flooring, crown or base, and you can usually make more billing it this way rather than by time or by room.

The final way which can work well if you're doing the work yourself and not paying employees or subs, is just by how much it takes to make it worth it to you. For things like installing doors, just give them a number that you will be happy with making whether it takes you half an hour or two hours.

The last way is great for jobs where there are multiples of something, as you get faster the more you do it while still making the same money per item. It is also a good way to do it when you are gaining skills, techniques, specialty tools and speed. It allows you to make more money as you get faster and more efficient without making your customers feel exploited.

To explain, picture hanging doors. If you charge $200 per door and are new at it, using chisels and a belt sander, hand nailing etc, it might take you 4-5 hours per door so you make around $400 per day.

A couple years later with experience, a router and template, cordless planer, nail guns, etc, you might go to that same customer's new house and hang a bunch of doors in 1.5 hours per door, still charge them $200 per door, they are happy, and you make a lot more money.

If you had started out charging them $25 per hour then increase it to $50 per hour, they are going to feel taken advantage of and complain, even if you are twice as fast as you used to be.

 

[Cowboy Buckie]

I have always bid trim off the plans. Any high end job will have the trim type and where it is to be installed on the plans. If its not on the plans its not in the bid. This can be especially important when it comes to closets. You expected five hundred shoe cubbies you say? Lets have a look at those plans. If there is to be additional trim its bid separately. Break down each type of molding into how many rooms, ceiling height, fastening method, etc. etc.. Figure out how long it will take for each room, add it up and add your rate. Bidding by square ft. is for track homes.

 

[liljahoe]

I was wondering if someone could help me bid a commercial prevailing wage job, the job is the Kansas City City Hall 23rd floor running a two-part base and custom building the door jambs 4 solid core doors.

 

[Metro M & L]

How much can you get? Thats what you should bid it for.

Dont know what you can get? Well then you can bid low enough to know youll get it or you can bid high enough to know you wont; then ask to review the winning bid.

This is why its so important to have money. Every bid is a hand of poker. Ther is a small ante [your time, your gas]. The great thing is all you have to do is determine how big the pot is by bidding maybe 100 similar jobs and doing maybe three to five of them.

The problem being you cant make winning bets without the time allowed for by having capital in the bank.

If you bid low and get it, well you know you lost right? Who did it to you? You did!

If you bid high and they turn you down youre getting closer to winning.

So to conclude best way to know what you charge is to bid high and then lower it until youre working. Most guys do the opposite (myself included for the first 5 years I was in business) and quickly find themselves digging their own financial grave.

 

[Calidecks]

How much can you get? Thats what you should bid it for.

Dont know what you can get? Well then you can bid low enough to know youll get it or you can bid high enough to know you wont; then ask to review the winning bid.

This is why its so important to have money. Every bid is a hand of poker. Ther is a small ante [your time, your gas]. The great thing is all you have to do is determine how big the pot is by bidding maybe 100 similar jobs and doing maybe three to five of them.

The problem being you cant make winning bets without the time allowed for by having capital in the bank.

If you bid low and get it, well you know you lost right? Who did it to you? You did!

If you bid high and they turn you down youre getting closer to winning.

So to conclude best way to know what you charge is to bid high and then lower it until youre working. Most guys do the opposite (myself included for the first 5 years I was in business) and quickly find themselves digging their own financial grave.

I'd much rather not get a job I over bid, than get a job I under bid.

 

[m1911]

I'd much rather not get a job I over bid, than get a job I under bid.

What, you don't like working for free, or close to free? :laughing: