I am hiring carpenters at present and with the boom that is going on in Alberta I am finding myself willing to pay a little more for qualified yet uneducated tradesmen. I went through the appreniceship program, as I request all my guys do. Yet there are good carpenters that have not recieved the formal training. It is all about money, do the good non certified deserve the certiified rate. I say no, what do others say. To make it clear if you are not certified with us you will never be put into the position of sturctual athourity.
Education should be respected in the trades?
woodmagman
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Woodmagman, in NJ unless your in a union hall that has a test and journyman status there is no requirments for freelance contractors.
Teetor, Im sure you still know what your doing I was brought up with family in the trades as well but it doesnt mean I know all the latest applications on installing all the different products that have come out.
Im sure you guys would agree with me that once your a mechanic you can layout or assemble any system. Whats wrong with somekind of updated certifying. The union carpenters in my area are doing metal studs,acoustic cielings and drywall in commercial structures none of these have anything to do with wood microlams and residential support yet they go around soliciting all the time. They should organize a range of similar trade ability and classify it. If you have more range then more power to you you earned it. Like this you have people dabbling into every aspect with no ryhme or reason learning as they go.
Teetor, Im sure you still know what your doing I was brought up with family in the trades as well but it doesnt mean I know all the latest applications on installing all the different products that have come out.
Im sure you guys would agree with me that once your a mechanic you can layout or assemble any system. Whats wrong with somekind of updated certifying. The union carpenters in my area are doing metal studs,acoustic cielings and drywall in commercial structures none of these have anything to do with wood microlams and residential support yet they go around soliciting all the time. They should organize a range of similar trade ability and classify it. If you have more range then more power to you you earned it. Like this you have people dabbling into every aspect with no ryhme or reason learning as they go.
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There are some things that can only be learned in the field...So, a guy gets out of trade school and works in the field. Problem solved (as long as he's intelligent enough to understand and use what he was taught).
On the other side of the coin, a man can work in the field for a thousand years and never get any understanding what-so-ever of even the most basic engineering concepts taught in the classroom. In this case, if he's not being supervised, he is a real hazzard to the welfare of the public.
In the end, it's a simple formula; the people who can work without supervision are worth a lot more money to you than the people who can't.
On the other side of the coin, a man can work in the field for a thousand years and never get any understanding what-so-ever of even the most basic engineering concepts taught in the classroom. In this case, if he's not being supervised, he is a real hazzard to the welfare of the public.
In the end, it's a simple formula; the people who can work without supervision are worth a lot more money to you than the people who can't.
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Value and wages
Mikeswell, Well said! I could not agree with you more. My struggle always is that to maintain a base for equality I am paying more to educated tradesman then those that have not taken the time to better themselves. Not that one works harder or more effeciently then the other, "an average man can surround himself with men that have knowledge, making him not such a average man" Knowlege has value, should the value be turned in dollars and cents, or should it be over looked.
My original Question still stands, should I continue to pay more to one of two equal tradesman where one has a formal education?
In the formula, does formal education receive any merit?
Mikeswell, Well said! I could not agree with you more. My struggle always is that to maintain a base for equality I am paying more to educated tradesman then those that have not taken the time to better themselves. Not that one works harder or more effeciently then the other, "an average man can surround himself with men that have knowledge, making him not such a average man" Knowlege has value, should the value be turned in dollars and cents, or should it be over looked.
My original Question still stands, should I continue to pay more to one of two equal tradesman where one has a formal education?
In the formula, does formal education receive any merit?
That's a really tough question. Does a sort of grandfather clause for the uncertified worker entitle him to equal pay? Very tough.
Looks like there are two paths to be taken and they both arrive approximately at the same point. One is a formal, structural route. The other is in the field, more freestyle. Both take a lot of work. I would say each guy has some skills that the other doesn't. I'd pay them equal if you can justify it.
Looks like there are two paths to be taken and they both arrive approximately at the same point. One is a formal, structural route. The other is in the field, more freestyle. Both take a lot of work. I would say each guy has some skills that the other doesn't. I'd pay them equal if you can justify it.
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but when you are just meeting a guy that piece of paper or sheepskin is nice....
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That makes education an entitlement.
Chris G... to justify it would void ones time spent getting formal trade knowledge, making it an entitlement. Would this not make the education process valueless?
And with no formal knowlege are you not just being paid from the neck down.
Chris G... to justify it would void ones time spent getting formal trade knowledge, making it an entitlement. Would this not make the education process valueless?
And with no formal knowlege are you not just being paid from the neck down.
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Not usually. The graduate gets the field experience, but the other guy is not likely to ever get the education. They are usually very different from each other in other ways as well. One is a technician, the other is labor. The pay is different for each, and rightly so.
A laborer should be treated with the respect that he deserves, but a good technician is worth more, and should be paid more. Always.
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Forgotten
Teetor...Maybe not forgotten, just preoccupied. I have been known to forget to put a belt on until my pants remind me half way out the door. This is not that I don't know how to put on a belt, only need a little reminder. A refesher coarse or maybe even uprading, if you know where I going with this. It would even be considered common sense to put on the belt. But, I have been told that common sense is not common, it is a learned process. I think this sounds like a new thread.
Teetor...Maybe not forgotten, just preoccupied. I have been known to forget to put a belt on until my pants remind me half way out the door. This is not that I don't know how to put on a belt, only need a little reminder. A refesher coarse or maybe even uprading, if you know where I going with this. It would even be considered common sense to put on the belt. But, I have been told that common sense is not common, it is a learned process. I think this sounds like a new thread.
I think some pieces of paper mean very little and some mean a lot.
Just yesterday a guy came up and asked if I was looking for a finish man, says work has slowed down and he was layed off. He's telling me about using oiless finish guns and sounds like he might know what he's talkin about so I give him a written test I carry in my truck. It has questions that range from just reading a tape to master carpenter. This guy didn't know what half of 11/16th was or what "crowning a board" was. He couldn't answer one single question.
Point is people talk a lot of $hit and if he came with a union card or actual training cert I'd know he's not a total newbie.
I also know a guy who's a licensed contractor who has never done any construction in his life. All he did is pay the money, take the test (that has nothing to do with construction knowledge) and he got a license. That piece of paper is worth less to me than the first piece of paper from the union or tech school so should be paid accordingly.
Just yesterday a guy came up and asked if I was looking for a finish man, says work has slowed down and he was layed off. He's telling me about using oiless finish guns and sounds like he might know what he's talkin about so I give him a written test I carry in my truck. It has questions that range from just reading a tape to master carpenter. This guy didn't know what half of 11/16th was or what "crowning a board" was. He couldn't answer one single question.
Point is people talk a lot of $hit and if he came with a union card or actual training cert I'd know he's not a total newbie.
I also know a guy who's a licensed contractor who has never done any construction in his life. All he did is pay the money, take the test (that has nothing to do with construction knowledge) and he got a license. That piece of paper is worth less to me than the first piece of paper from the union or tech school so should be paid accordingly.
Woodmagman-- Your question is valid-- consider this: an athlete studies long and hard about how to play a sport and receives top grades for his studies; however, when game time comes- he can't throw or catch very well compared to the rest of the mixed group of "techs" with differen't education levels. Of course, the job and pay goes to the person that can get the job done and make the plays; not someone who sat in a class and copied the answers from his classmate. I'm not saying those with educations are incompetent; I'm just saying to look at the persons competence and not a piece of paper. I'm going to pay the guy that's competent and makes me money regardless of a "diploma". Again, I'm not saying educated guys can't do the job-- I'm only saying use your judgement.
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Mike.gcoc...It seems obvious to pay the producers more, you know the diverse dynamics of individuals on work sites, there is always the game of I am smarter, harder working and so on then my work mate. If you don't show value in education would the hard workers and producers who could do and be better not bother if we don't reward for both.
Woodmagman- I see your point and I think rewarding education is a good thing. This brings up another issue though. My father worked for a large company as a supervisor of electronics technicians and he found that guys who graduated from one trade school "knew their stuff" and guys that graduated from another trade school "didn't know s#%?!." All these guys were "educated" and seemed of equal competence on paper, but on the job were not equal. Should everybody with a diploma automatically be entitled to the same pay? I believe in my dad's company they were given the same pay, but I don't think it's fair.
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Anyone that does not know s#%?!." should not be in a postion were an income is paid to them. When that happens the patients start running the asylum
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I was reading this thread and I just had to throw in my two cents, and a brief story wich should state my opinion.
While in the begining of my carpentery carreer I worked for a couple of guys in Seattle, after a long hot day we were sitting aroung having a couple of pops when the subject of going to school for carpentry came up. One of my biggest faults in life is quickly stating my opinion before properly testing the waters. I proceeded to loudly proclaim that only a one eyed incestial idiot would pay to learn to be a carpenter when all you had to do is get a job and learn as you get payed. Well you guessed it one of the guys I was working for had attended a local university and a seperate trade school on the subject of residential carpentry, luckily the other owner had the same veiwpoint and my job was saved.
The attitude that a peice of paper makes for a better trades person is a joke, a co that practices this is always going to be looking for employees, most of the best carpenters and foremans I have been around live the work and care about what they are creating not if they have a piece of paper from a class taught by a "carpenter" that couldn't cut it on a real job sight.:furious:
While in the begining of my carpentery carreer I worked for a couple of guys in Seattle, after a long hot day we were sitting aroung having a couple of pops when the subject of going to school for carpentry came up. One of my biggest faults in life is quickly stating my opinion before properly testing the waters. I proceeded to loudly proclaim that only a one eyed incestial idiot would pay to learn to be a carpenter when all you had to do is get a job and learn as you get payed. Well you guessed it one of the guys I was working for had attended a local university and a seperate trade school on the subject of residential carpentry, luckily the other owner had the same veiwpoint and my job was saved.
The attitude that a peice of paper makes for a better trades person is a joke, a co that practices this is always going to be looking for employees, most of the best carpenters and foremans I have been around live the work and care about what they are creating not if they have a piece of paper from a class taught by a "carpenter" that couldn't cut it on a real job sight.:furious:
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Pop drinking
Ah, to have such a sense of self worth that only to sit and drink your pop gives you the wisdom not to expand your knowledge further than your set limitations. This I am sure is coming from a self-proclaimed carpenter who looks at the number and the blade of his framing square and asks the question “why are these numbers here”! and when asked the reason for putting steel in the concrete pile, the answer will be to make it stronger and yet tensile nor compressive strength never enter his mind. The national building code is only for the squints at town hall and what the heck, I am just a carpenter and need not want to be informed. :blink:
Ah, to have such a sense of self worth that only to sit and drink your pop
gives you the wisdom not to expand your knowledge further than your set limitations. This I am sure is coming from a self-proclaimed carpenter who looks at the number and the blade of his framing square and asks the question “why are these numbers here”! and when asked the reason for putting steel in the concrete pile, the answer will be to make it stronger and yet tensile nor compressive strength never enter his mind. The national building code is only for the squints at town hall and what the heck, I am just a carpenter and need not want to be informed. :blink:21 - 36 of 36 Posts
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