If you want them to stick around you have to pay them what they are worth, certified or not. During a boom, tradesmen tend to be in short supply and if you don't pay your competition will.

 

The question is not about paying them what they are worth, it is are they worth the same as certified carpenters.

 

Unfortunately, "certified" does not mean much anymore, 4 years of trade school does not make a tradesman, yes it gives a good foundation, but many un-certified workers can out do certified workers any day.
We live in a right to work state, and while I came up in the union and strongly believe in it, it is a thing of the past down here.

My belief is that a man should be payed on his skill and knowledge, not a slip of paper.

My dad had a saying = " If you pay peanut's........ You get monkey's"

If you show respect to your worker's by paying and treating them right, it is likely they will respect you and stick around for a while

 

Never would I say that the paper is what deterimines the ablity. Is is fair to those who have both paper and ability to be paid in the same company the amount as those with ability only.......? As a union member you should be fighting for this, peanuts or not you will have only monkeys working if there is no formal educating.

 

As a business owner, I care about my employees ability. Like the other poster had mentioned, it's just a piece of paper. I know this first hand, because in my area I've hired these guys right out of trade school, and most of them cant swing a hammer correctly. If you make me money, I will pay you accordingly. Thats all that matters.

If I was looking for a job, and you told me you wouldn't pay me as much as the next guy, because he had a piece of paper. I'd probably laugh in your face, and walk out the door.

 

Fact is, a person with formal, documented educational qualifications that can do the work is more valuable than a person that just can do the work. In a tight labor market, you don't have the luxury of paying the person without the paperwork any less. That's the reality created by a tight labor market. If you're looking for star producers, you need to pay them. I was on a job the other day where a wood carver was on the job. He explained that he never thought he'd be paid 24 dollars an hour right out of prison. He was an excellent wood carver, and somebody recognized that fact. I can only imagine what his fantastic work must have billed out for. (admittedly, I'm not sure I'd want to employ a guy that just spent 12 years in prison)

 

I was not inferring that education is invalid, I was only stating that it is not the paper that makes the tradesman, I know State certified contractors that have no clue how to lay out a job or which end is up on a jackhamer, they get their license because they know where to find answers in books, and have the financial and time resources to do so.

If you had 2 employees doing the same work, one with a ticket and one without, and the latter was producing more, and a better quality, which one do you keep, if you had to choose?

A ticket means you completed the required classes to earn it, it does guarantee you will be successfull in the field only time on the tools will tell that.

 

I could be wrong, because the written word is taken in many way's, but I feel the comment about "what I should be fighting for" was little jab.

I am a union worker and would be happy to discuss what I "fight For" but not on a public forum, we can do that on the PM.

I was just giving my opinion on your question, an opinion I might add that I have first hand knowledge of.

 

no piece of paper can compare to an assertive person with years of on the job experience

 

Most ads I see state "6 years schools or 2 years experience. Same pay"

I see 'kids' that are book educated, but don't a clue about anything beyond their learning enviroment.:sad:

 

I would say that if a person has on the job training this tells me they should know what they are doing, as for a certified worker coming into the work force may have book knowledge but the thing here is the hands on training out in the field, things happen that don't take place in a classroom. I have come up in the field on the job. I spent a week in the classroom to study to get my builders license, I took the State test past all parts of the test and when I turned in my application I was denied a license because I had a Felony on my record, I got busted when I was 17 years old(1974 It cost me 4 years), I took the test in 1998 and the State of Michigan held this over my head and would not give me a license. I started my business in 1985 and since the work I do doesn't require a license I do small jobs of repair work. So that piece of paper in my eyes is all Bulls**t. the thing that gets me is these licensed contractors who go out and rip people off(I have had a few customers who got ripped off by licensed contractors) and the State does nothing to these guys, but boy say you don't have a license and they stick it to you. I got beat out of 40k by a Dentist. So I feel the system is full of BS. there ain't any level playing field when it comes to contrators. The guys who rip people off that's what they do and the guys who go all out to do something legal that's what they do. but to say one person is better because he or she sat in a classroom, I don't buy it. I looked at how people work on the job, not what they can quote from a book. Another thing is just because someone does time doesn't mean you condemn them to a life of non worth, people F*** up I did and I learned from my mistakes. I know contractors who steal lumber or a box of nails, and they say "No one is going to miss it" this is a normal thinking with some guys. My neighbor who is a carpenter does it all the time.

 

The question was lost

Is the uncertified tradesman entitled to the same pay scale as the certified. With the understanding that they both have ability. And I am not speaking on Jackhammer labor work. I am referring to Red Seal Journeyman Carpenters, and good Uncertified Carpenters. ARE THEY OF EQUAL PAY SCALE.

 

What is Trade Certified???????

I am reading and finding that the response is refering to business licenses and hard work. This is not the question I am asking.

 

There should a certifaction test that allow taught classroom knowledge to enter the work force and field expirience to maintain current practices. Say every three years. Education is always more valuable period. You can get it from a classroom or from the field. I think their ought to be some kind of backround taught to all construction trades. A licensed plumber or electrican need apprentice time as well as testing for certifaction and then maintain the licenses with classes or seminars. So does the architects or engineers designing the structure but the building can fall down around the mechanicals and design. Too many guys doing work beyond there field of experince.

 

There should a certifaction test that allow taught classroom knowledge to enter the work force and field expirience to maintain current practices. Say every three years. Education is always more valuable period. You can get it from a classroom or from the field. I think their ought to be some kind of backround taught to all construction trades. A licensed plumber or electrican need apprentice time as well as testing for certifaction and then maintain the licenses with classes or seminars. So does the architects or engineers designing the structure but the building can fall down around the mechanicals and design. Too many guys doing work beyond there field of experince.

The whole idea of the apprentice, is that they learn in the field and then in the classroom, there is testing and through the program the apprentice is validated. This goes for all trades! Do you not have state or inter-state trade appreniceships?

 

I would hire anybody with an A SAP building or service cerification in a heartbeat.

that is the member association to the pool & spa biz

 

apsp?

 

Dad taught me how to set and point brick when I was 6 yrs. old, also how to mix mortar for different applications. I did brick, off and on, until the service. Haven't touched one since. Does that mean that I've forgotten 12 yrs.?

 

Woodmagman, in NJ unless your in a union hall that has a test and journyman status there is no requirments for freelance contractors.

Teetor, Im sure you still know what your doing I was brought up with family in the trades as well but it doesnt mean I know all the latest applications on installing all the different products that have come out.

Im sure you guys would agree with me that once your a mechanic you can layout or assemble any system. Whats wrong with somekind of updated certifying. The union carpenters in my area are doing metal studs,acoustic cielings and drywall in commercial structures none of these have anything to do with wood microlams and residential support yet they go around soliciting all the time. They should organize a range of similar trade ability and classify it. If you have more range then more power to you you earned it. Like this you have people dabbling into every aspect with no ryhme or reason learning as they go.

 

There are some things that can only be learned in the field...So, a guy gets out of trade school and works in the field. Problem solved (as long as he's intelligent enough to understand and use what he was taught).

On the other side of the coin, a man can work in the field for a thousand years and never get any understanding what-so-ever of even the most basic engineering concepts taught in the classroom. In this case, if he's not being supervised, he is a real hazzard to the welfare of the public.

In the end, it's a simple formula; the people who can work without supervision are worth a lot more money to you than the people who can't.

 

Value and wages

Mikeswell, Well said! I could not agree with you more. My struggle always is that to maintain a base for equality I am paying more to educated tradesman then those that have not taken the time to better themselves. Not that one works harder or more effeciently then the other, "an average man can surround himself with men that have knowledge, making him not such a average man" Knowlege has value, should the value be turned in dollars and cents, or should it be over looked.
My original Question still stands, should I continue to pay more to one of two equal tradesman where one has a formal education?
In the formula, does formal education receive any merit?

 

W,

You should do what "you know" is right!!!!

You have a measure for what right is. Apply it. Make it understood by all. encourage it. Reward it.

 

That's a really tough question. Does a sort of grandfather clause for the uncertified worker entitle him to equal pay? Very tough.

Looks like there are two paths to be taken and they both arrive approximately at the same point. One is a formal, structural route. The other is in the field, more freestyle. Both take a lot of work. I would say each guy has some skills that the other doesn't. I'd pay them equal if you can justify it.

 

...they both arrive approximately at the same point...

Not usually. The graduate gets the field experience, but the other guy is not likely to ever get the education. They are usually very different from each other in other ways as well. One is a technician, the other is labor. The pay is different for each, and rightly so.

A laborer should be treated with the respect that he deserves, but a good technician is worth more, and should be paid more. Always.

 

but when you are just meeting a guy that piece of paper or sheepskin is nice....

 

That makes education an entitlement.

Chris G... to justify it would void ones time spent getting formal trade knowledge, making it an entitlement. Would this not make the education process valueless? And with no formal knowlege are you not just being paid from the neck down.

 

Forgotten

Teetor...Maybe not forgotten, just preoccupied. I have been known to forget to put a belt on until my pants remind me half way out the door. This is not that I don't know how to put on a belt, only need a little reminder. A refesher coarse or maybe even uprading, if you know where I going with this. It would even be considered common sense to put on the belt. But, I have been told that common sense is not common, it is a learned process. I think this sounds like a new thread.

 

I think some pieces of paper mean very little and some mean a lot.

Just yesterday a guy came up and asked if I was looking for a finish man, says work has slowed down and he was layed off. He's telling me about using oiless finish guns and sounds like he might know what he's talkin about so I give him a written test I carry in my truck. It has questions that range from just reading a tape to master carpenter. This guy didn't know what half of 11/16th was or what "crowning a board" was. He couldn't answer one single question.

Point is people talk a lot of $hit and if he came with a union card or actual training cert I'd know he's not a total newbie.

I also know a guy who's a licensed contractor who has never done any construction in his life. All he did is pay the money, take the test (that has nothing to do with construction knowledge) and he got a license. That piece of paper is worth less to me than the first piece of paper from the union or tech school so should be paid accordingly.