Use pop rivets / better than screws :thumbsup:

 

we use tek screws to drill out holes in the jambs, saves burning through a lot of bits,

we then fix off with self tappers

 

Would the 3/16" bit take the abuse of drilling through the metal frame and then into the concrete. After the hole is drilled, I figure in dropping in a plastic anchor. Does anyone have a different idea?

I have used a 1/4" carbide bit into metal first then concrete in the past with no problems.

I don't see what you're saying, you ask a question then immediately afterwords you answer it yourself.

Metal door frames are usually made of a thin soft metal, I'd imagine a roto-hammer with a carbide bit would drill through it with no problem. Just start out on drill mode, then switch to hammer mode once you've broken through.

 

Thankfully I have only had to do a couple of these over the years.
I just drill the steel jamb until it feels like it's about to give and then
switch to 1/8" masonry bit. Tend to burn a few steel bits but I never
came up with a better option.

I will watch this thread for new solutions to this problem!

 

Thankfully I have only had to do a couple of these over the years.
I just drill the steel jamb until it feels like it's about to give and then
switch to 1/8" masonry bit. Tend to burn a few steel bits but I never
came up with a better option.

Thats what I did aswell, fortunately I've only ran into this type of door twice. I now have a set of "sharpened" masonry bits that will drill steel and concrete without sustaining much damage...although they arn't split point so they don't start as easy or drill as fast.

 

Hi Inner,
Thanks for that info...
I look online a bit...Bad Dog website not fully developed yet
and couldn't find pricing anywhere.
Are they a wood working show item?
Have you had good luck with them?

 

I bought them at a show, I rarely get sold on info-mercial type crap. They way these were demoed was like watching a Ginsu knife commercial. The regular price is 150, at the show they were 90. I took the gamble after I saw the guy drill holes through a Cooper File, then through a concrete block and a brake rotor.

I haven't used them for long but a few things to note.

- Not split point, so they are a ***** to start with walking unless you have a divot or hole already started.
- They drill slower than standard twist bits.
- They don't cut and clean out the hole as nice either.

But the advantage is

- its a flexible steel shaft so when an idoit borrows them they can't snap them off.
- carbide tip wears like...well carbide

They are like a jack-of-all trades master-of-none drill bit. Even at 90 bucks they are overpriced but the company will replace them for free even if you wear the blade completely off, break them from abuse, anything.

They have some U-Tube videos of drilling through glass, granite, concrete, steel etc.

If I had some extra time (like now when I'm suppose to be doing monitoring invoices and I'm pissing around on CT) and a decent sharpening device you could probably make the identical bit set by sharpening a bunch of carbide tipped concrete bits yourself.

 

Hi again Inner,
Thanks for the detailed info...
I did find some similar reviews about their sales techniques online.
Couldn't find any pricing.

Now get back to work...Like me...Oops!

TheDoorGuy

 

I don't use any drill bits! I use self tapping truss head screws if the hardware isn't great quality like Von duprin they usualy don't supply these screws. Buy them and use them for kick plates too. I run the screw just until I cut threw the steel then I switch the screw to a s-12 drywall screw this screw will instantly go right through the grout then I grab the weather strip screws that are soaking in tap oil and drive them home. It's the fastest cheapest way. I've seen so many so called door guys with hammer drills and taps and mollys fighting these frames. Allso the head jamb weatherstrip should be continuouse do not cut for the shoe of the closer. The only time you should break the seal is for the strike on a rim mounted exit device. Never use pan heads or zinc plated screws

 

I buy my own screws, never use the garbage that comes with them. I keep self tapping metal screws on hand in several lengths. One for panic devices, one for door closures, and one for weather stripping. For the stripping, I use 7/16's self tappers.

 

Just wondering if you guys are required to use a "threaded / tapped" fastener or if just a sheet metal screw is acceptable on a commercial door hardware installation.

 

I have only ran into this problem once, and did the anchor deal. It wasn't too bad, I did come into the problem with the rebar but I got luck I was able to cut the anchor down a bit and use a smaller screw.

As far as commercial hardware installations, it all depends on the hardware man. You don't want to be installing a $250 closure with crappy sheetmetal screws.

 

Knock down interior frames that are 25 gauge you use coarse thread screws it doesn't matter if the closer is $500 the steal is two thin to tap. Exterior frames are allways 18 gauge or thicker and should allways be drilled and tapped. If your using anchors for anything other than the threshold it justs means you screwed up and drilled the hole to big. Lcn closers and any hardware in institutions or hospitals have standard screw requirements and will void the warranty if not used correctly. All closers are 1/4-20 or #14 wood screw, tapping should be a minnimum 60%. And all wood fire doors are mandatory sex bolts. Strikes are usually 12/24 I'm seeing more gc requiring only certified installers. Wich is a good thing because all my service calls is due to the wrong screws or missing hardware.

 

This is a really common problem for me. How you deal with it varied slightly depending on what the frames are filled with.

If it's filled with mortar I use 1/8" HHS bits. I have 2 drills set up with bits in them. One is sharp, I use it until I just break through the steel then I run a dull bit into the mortar. I like using a hammer drill for this operation. I use the screws that come in the weatherstripping package with a little bit of Walter Alucut on them so they don't snap. I don't like using Teks for Weather stripping unless they are the ones that come with the kit because they don't have the clearance to allow for adjustment later. As the steel bit goes dull I swap it out and throw it in a box when I get a hundred or so bits in the box I resharpen them. The bit in the hammer drill will wear to the point where it's undersized and will cause screws to snap off. You just throw those out.

I have TIN coated 1/8" bits as well but there's no use using them on filled frames, they dull just as fast as HHS with the abrasive masonry so it just coasts you more.

I do the same thing with # 25's for panic strikes and #7's for closers and whatever for continuous hinge etc.. I run machine taps with lots of grease on them if I'm not using teks. I find machine taps last longer and rarely break in the application. The mortar doesn't affect them too much either.

Grout filled frames are real nasty to deal with. I handle them the same way only use nice little 1/8" masonry bits. The grout's so hard it burns them up but they are the only thing I've found that will drill the stuff. You have to go deep drilling to the grout for clearance. If you use quality machine taps you can actually cut threads into the grout. You have to because it isn't going to give way. You have to use lots of cutting grease. Fortunately the only place I see grout filled frames is on the center mullion of double egress doors in schools and hospitals. Most exterior doors are masonry filled so unless you have sound seal you don't have to worry about weather stripping. Usually it's just panic strikes you have to deal with but I've had rookie eager beaver supers do the whole opening in grout which makes for very miserable going, especially on hospital doors with continuous hinge.

You guys who use teks for installing hardware. Don't you ever get caught doing that? In some situations it voids the UL rating. The only place I use them on hardware to hold the push bar on panics or to hold up the bar until I get the handset on the back side. We always have the ASSA or IR rep come around and inspect the job before a warranty is issued. It's usually right in the specs.

 

We have grouted and sometimes concrete frames to install hardware all of the time and it is always a fight. I was interested to hear the rivits idea but am concerned about warranty issues. We were thinking the fab shops should put in a foam strip or something fire rated and cheap to makea void in the concrete.

 

I use stainless steel rivits for kickplates, pushplates etc. and I love it, but never for weatherstripping. One architect always specs SS rivitsso that's never a problem, I always make a proposal and get the architect to agree. I've never been turned down and never had a warrantee issue. The rivits are a much more seamless look so all I have to do is show them on one door and they're sold.

2 problems using them on weather stripping.

If the opening is masonry filled you can't be positive the rivits will hold.

If you install with rivits you don't have any adjustment. I do a last walk through after the air's balanced and set up all the closers, adjust latches, mag locks etc and adjust weather stripping. If the rivits are loose enough to adjust they aren't tight enough to hold their adjustment.

 

I own a company that only installs commercial doors and hardware. If my guys are using rivetts and not self tapping kick plate screws and not using a corded screw gun no cordlesses sometimes impacts.And masonary frames a s12 drywall screw pilots the cement in seconds. I would have to lay them off. Time is money before unemployment insurance and comp my guys cost me $46 an hour

 

My company does that too, along with millwork installs, toilet partitions etc.. I use union labour. If there is a difference in cost between rivits and teks it's never show up in my cost reporting. If anything it's faster. We use air riviters and we install school lockers as well so we're pretty fast with them. What I like most is you never break a rivit on a weld or a seam.

 

#2 PHILLIPS TRUSS HEAD SCREWS #6-20 X 1/2 inch a screw gun and metabo tape and pencil. If you put any other tool on your cart your taking too long.

 

Sounds like your in good shape then.

 

Use a metal scratch awl. No drill bit and #8 self tapping screw will complete weather stripping no issues.

 

It's been 6 years he probably has the weather stripping installed by now.

 

The last dozen or so closures and panics i installed all came with self tapping screws. It has been a few years since i have tapped a door for hardware. I may have to dig deep in my truck to find the tap drill kit

 

Rim strikes like the 0162 get drilled and tapped with 1/4-20 hardware. Also some doors with cylindrical hardware or narrow line aluminum don't come drilled and tapped for the strike, that happens on site.

 

Phew ! just woke up did i miss anything ?.

 

we just use a pointy nail punch to make a hole, then any screw you like