the "celebrated miter" is the only way i'll do exterior joints:thumbsup:

 

Never finish the bottom of the board... Moisture will get in... and then where does it go? Not the way it came in that's for sure.

 

It's true, it doesn't look bad in the pic's...but thinking about how much extra it probably cost over pressure treated, I see the customer's concern...I like the thought of intentionally opening up the miters...I'd run it by the customer first though, could look a little like a hack if they're not sure what & why you're doing it

 

We came up with the solution together, reviewing pictures of previous projects, they agreed. I used to do the "celebrated miter joint " all the time with cedar and redwood. (before I quit using cedar and
redwood.:no

As long as you hit it with a round over to match the deck board, it looks intentional and not hacky sack.

 

If it's composite it's a non issue, the customer has it in writing and by the time I do the job it's beat into them, that all joints open and close with the temperatures. I just make sure my joints are cleanly cut.

 

You said its messmer's. Anyone who has done more than 4 exotic decks has run into messmer's with moderate success. It in my opinion is one of the better penetrating sealers out there. It also should never be used to seal the under side of a deck, nor should any other sealer. Any adhesive is rendered useless from deck to framing, water intrusion is detrimental to the stability of the lumber after sealed on all surfaces, climate control shouldn't have any affect on look (with messmers) as long as it hasn't or wont rain in 12 hrs (I've found 6 to be sufficient) and last... What extra does it provide other than to say, "we do this"?

You do good work totes but listen to John, you were caught in two sales pitches the first one is telling you that only 2 companies import this material, second that it should be sealed all 4 sides.

Aljoma says they're the only importers of abaco decking... Well they're the only ones who import under that name because its really just massaranduba with a new patented title, I have to respectfully suspect this is what the company you buy from has told you... Is it mataverde?

The retention of water causing the joints to open on the outside could very well be because of the four sides being sealed. Most people who import the lumber haven't had much experience installing it, if they haven't seeked out the right real world experience then they know just enough to be dangerous. Messmers is good but will do nothing extra if sealed on all four sides, I've used it almost exclusively since '08 until this past year.

The only thing the high end exotics need is UV protection, otherwise less is more.

 

Thank you. It's very true what you say about conflicting information regarding hardwood decking. The same darn species is called 5
different things depending on origin and grade.
I will try to keep my eyes and ears open..don't doubt my respect for John, you,or any other professional on this forum. The only reason I'm here is to learn...be the best I can be with what I am doing.
I agree, exotic don't need much. When I first got going I would leave the finish/seal/stain up to the homeowners. Some would never do it, and a few years later....not so bad!!!, a few checks, silver surface..but I could still clean it up and make it look new again.
I like Messemers. It's easy. It's dirt cheap. It doesn't build up. but thats a whole different matter.
I'm not big time but no spring chicken...just doing what has proven effective for me. Things that work great in my dry climate in Bend, totally different in Portland or Hood river where it rains sideways 8 months a year.
I'll tell you what though... if it's square, even a 5x5 deck..Im framing it it steel. I blame this on the frame more than the skin.

 

That's pretty much the remedy I've decided on. I'm going to pop the border pieces, cut the miters back, round over the edges and have a "celebrated" miter joint with an intentional 3/16-1/4" spacing. This way I can reuse the pieces, I will just fill the biscuit hole w pud....or 1/2 biscuit. The stairs miters aren't that bad, leaving those as is. The issue was boarder pieces. A lot of great responses, real food for thought. In the future I may eliminate the closed miter joint all together. They've been holding up pretty well with this material....until this. Thanks all!~:thumbsup:

That is exactly what I'd do too.

 

Hello All... here’s my 2cents.

never never never seal all four sides .period.
biscuits are ok but you know I just can’t resist the Festie domino with there african mahogany wold of have the best. Hahaha.
I’m with Cali on the FYI on Joints to customers.
I’m with Jon on all of it. Especially the glue and sand with magic dust.
Take apart and round over with 1/8 put it back with a gap of 1/8 - 3/16. Never leave a tight joint they only last about day or two.

Or you can be like me no huss no fuss and just don’t bother doing miters. That’s right no miters. Imagine that. We square off single or double picture frame on composite, and exotics or no pict frame at all

Good Luck New Guy:thumbsup:

 

Hello All... here’s my 2cents. never never never seal all four sides .period. biscuits are ok but you know I just can’t resist the Festie domino with there african mahogany wold of have the best. Hahaha. I’m with Cali on the FYI on Joints to customers. I’m with Jon on all of it. Especially the glue and sand with magic dust. Take apart and round over with 1/8 put it back with a gap of 1/8 - 3/16. Never leave a tight joint they only last about day or two. Or you can be like me no huss no fuss and just don’t bother doing miters. That’s right no miters. Imagine that. We square off single or double picture frame on composite, and exotics or no pict frame at all Good Luck New Guy:thumbsup:

Most composites I use are the capped and the ends aren't usually up against a fence. The end of a capped composite looks worse the an "untight" miter. IMO. After looking at a lot of your decks City, it seems like looking at the ends, is a non issue because of walls and fences.

 

Most composites I use are the capped and the ends aren't usually up against a fence. The end of a capped composite looks worse the an "untight" miter. IMO. After looking at a lot of your decks a City, it seems like looking at the ends, is a non issue because of walls and fences.

your right. we use composite and the ends are lil brighter then the tops but it blends in about a month or so. We do what we can to avoid walking onto your deck and having a naked but joist slap you in the face. We do what is possible to turn away so they don't pop. But at the end of the day it is what is and most customers and we love our customers don't even have a clue of joints but or miter they want a good clean job and that means your cuts including. At least I don't have miters that are busting out. Also since we build up your on the ground walking up to it. You step on it our decks and really can't see the outer edging unless you extend over the railings. You guys in the burbs build a lot lower then I.

 

Get some paint made to touch up the ends, just use something from KWAL or sherwin williams. Or do the 3/8" edge detail.

We RARELY do a picture frame anymore (did 1 in 2013, none in 2012, 1 in 2011)

 

Nope, it's a 3/8" wide rip of non grooved decking (in this picture, Fiberon Horizon) that is glued and trim nailed to the end of the deck boards to cover the unsightly butt cuts.

What's the length of time/track record for that method? I haven't seen it.

 

What's the length of time/track record for that method? I haven't seen it.

I've never seen anyone else do it either, we started doing it in 2009 I think.

We do a lot of things that no one else does... yet...

 

This is the time of year when wood in the outdoors, in Portland, OR has the highest moisture content of the entire year (17% EMC).

Those who said the wood was installed "too dry" are probably right. However, if you cut those miters to an even gap this time of year, the inside of the miters will show a larger gap by next July when the EMC drops back down below 12%.

My bet is that by July, the gap will be open evenly without you having to cut anything. If you wait until April or May the EMC will be about average for the year, that is when you have the best chance to do something when the wood is in the middle of it's range of motion.

Here is a reference for EMC data:

http://books.google.com/books?id=vG...ts=ZcHy_badr-&dq=oregon equilibrium moisture content&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Uhhhh...it's wood and it's ourdoors. What did you expect it to do. Stay perfect year after year?

 

The client did.


I expected a call in 2028 for a new deck.

 

I've never seen anyone else do it either, we started doing it in 2009 I think. We do a lot of things that no one else does... yet...

We do it now too, just haven't done it yet. :laughing:

 

I expect 10% of the labor money you save as a result...

 

I respect your expertise John, but I'm confused as to why pre-finishing would be a bad idea . The board is sealed on all 4 sides in a controlled environment with ideal conditions. Just like siding which isn't back primed, cupping is more likely when only finished on 3 or less sides. The decking importer recommends a 4 sided finish with waxed ends. The dude abides. The subfloor adhesive holds, big time. Maybe not that voc compliant Home Depot junk. I use the stuff that makes you light headed indoors, you can't scrape it off cleanly if you get some on the surface. As for the joints, I figure a biscuit is better than none at all. It at least keeps them flush, and before this, closed tight. Im glad to hear it only moves majorly once. Thanks

I've done to decks in ipe with miter joints with and without biscuits let's see how they do in toronto Canada il inspect in the spring.interesting thread,I do try a herringbone with butt joints when ican.

 

Hello All... here’s my 2cents. never never never seal all four sides .period. biscuits are ok but you know I just can’t resist the Festie domino with there african mahogany wold of have the best. Hahaha. I’m with Cali on the FYI on Joints to customers. I’m with Jon on all of it. Especially the glue and sand with magic dust. Take apart and round over with 1/8 put it back with a gap of 1/8 - 3/16. Never leave a tight joint they only last about day or two. Or you can be like me no huss no fuss and just don’t bother doing miters. That’s right no miters. Imagine that. We square off single or double picture frame on composite, and exotics or no pict frame at all Good Luck New Guy:thumbsup:

I think that is the way to go here here

 

Personally, I think that it comes down to educating the customer ahead of time. Exterior products move more then interior products. We can't control nature, only do the best we can.

I hate seeing end grain, so I do whatever is necessary to hide it, whether it's a miter, picture frame, or trim.

 

Did you tell her about the shrinkage?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEnKLhi83J8

 

Here is a response from Finehome Building,it is the nature of the beast.


http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/qa/why-miter-joints-open-up.aspx

 

TB 111 will seal up endgrain for a very long time.

My point is an outside joint will stay put or move on it's own nature. The plate jointing will not help or hinder or make any difference one way or the other, it will just line up one side.

Now a spline joint made from similar material will strengthen up a miter big time using a high grade glue like TB111.


J.

 

Got a bunch of time to invest in your next picture frame build?
Give this a shot...the technique isn't shown step by step, but it may work:
http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2010/04/30/curtis-mitertite-joint/#more-3315

EDIT: There is a follow up article:http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2010/08/06/homemade-mitertite-joinery/#more-4219

 

I think I'd try a half lap miter first and glue it.

 

There's shrinkage?

 

I do that as well.

Endgrain trim. Usually 1 1/2 '' rips of the decking with a router detail. The skirting bumps it leaving a sight reveal .

I am perplexed by the framing blocks on the rim. That I don't do.

J.

 

I do that as well.

Endgrain trim. Usually 1 1/2 '' rips of the decking with a router detail. The skirting bumps it leaving a sight reveal .

I am perplexed by the framing blocks on the rim. That I don't do.

J.

The blocks are what I'd call a cheap helper, they hold it in place while you work down the board and they don't talk back and break tools like employees.

Sometimes I miss doing wood for the simple fact of being able to use a router.

 

I got it now.

I use nails under the decking. I am a Moisture Shield kinda Guy when I put down manmade. Same endgrain trim with a router detail just like wood. This makes for a little different color at first but they fade together quickly exposed to the Sun.

J.

 

I got it now.

I use nails under the decking. I am a Moisture Shield kinda Guy when I put down manmade. Same endgrain trim with a router detail just like wood. This makes for a little different color at first but they fade together quickly exposed to the Sun.

J.

Can't router cap layer decking, well I guess technically you can but it would be really dumb.

 

Just my .02 cents. The job looks pretty darned good.
Additionally, the other photos you guys put up...thanks!

 

Like someone said before, pillowing them would help disguise any movement. I am worried about getting a call back on the cedar deck i did. I explained to them tirelessly it was gonna move... 5 more months and my warranty expires

 

Like someone said before, pillowing them would help disguise any movement. I am worried about getting a call back on the cedar deck i did. I explained to them tirelessly it was gonna move... 5 more months and my warranty expires

Don't be surprised if they think that every time you come out the warranty starts over from that point. Some people like to perpetuate a warranty. I had a guy call me after four years and said his patio cover had been leaking. I asked him when did it start leaking he said the first rain. He thought I should fix all the wood rot that this caused. I explained to him that there would of been no wood rot if you would of called me four years ago.

So I ended up replacing everything. Then he seemed to think his warranty began again. At this point I realized he's wanting a new cover every four years. So I gave him a lawyer written letter that explained to him I fixed his cover as a good will gesture and not a warranty claim. It also explained that the warranty doesn't perpetuate because of the fix either.

 

That would be a real test in patience..Not even 5 years living with Monks could prepare me to stay calm for that :laughing:

 

No need for the capped product.

Moisture Shield has overcome even the alleged need.

Only down side to MS is availability. They pitch a good game, have a quality product but have a hard time getting it in the warehouse.

J.

 

No need for the capped product.

Moisture Shield has overcome even the alleged need.

Only down side to MS is availability. They pitch a good game, have a quality product but have a hard time getting it in the warehouse.

J.

No Jon the cap is needed, even your beloved moisturesheild breaks down and falls apart in this environment. However capped boards don't. Jon QUALITY capped boards have been on the market for years with virtually no downsides or complaints, it's time to open your eyes.