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Change orders/additionals

647 Views 26 Replies 13 Participants Last post by  russellremodel
Hello All

I'm new here. I found this website as I searched for advise on what to do in regards to my business practices and what I see and hear of others.

I am a very honest guy. I'm not a religious guy but truly believe treat others how you want to be treated. I do a lot of business by a hand shake type contract although everyone gets a written quote and scope of proposed work. id say 90% of my work is word of mouth or return customers. I have been doing this for the last 17 yrs. I'm not getting rich but I have a good life. I definitely follow the work hard play harder mantra

Recently I have been having issues with final invoices, changes/additional work. I have discussions with homeowners about things we need to address. everything seems fine. They know about the costs involved. but when it comes time to pay is a big deal.

Now I'm a little guy. single carpenter with a part time helper. I have a buddy that works for a construction giant. I cant seem to move 1k here or there. His company moves hundreds of thousands and sometimes multiple times on a single job. Another friend of mine, same type of thing. will throw out ridiculous quotes because he is to busy or whatever and still get it. There are times he has made 3k per hour, no joke!

yesterday I had a customer question me over $254 in taxes. I don't get it?

Do any of you have any tips or tricks for invoicing or is this just part of the gig?
I know for the most part I'm under charging for my area but it keeps me busy and I have no overhead anyway. My millwork shop is on my property.
As I said I've been doing this 17 yrs but I always had a full time job and did this on the side virtually full time. I went off on my own a few yrs ago and find it tough sometimes to find the drive to keep going. any words of wisdom are appreciated
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Sounds like not charging enough is attracting the wrong type of clientele and change orders need to be paid when signed.
I had thought about that and took a good look at my clientele. I was a home services contractor for the big orange diy store and those clients typically were troublesome. I would land maybe 2 in 10. I have a lot of first responder clients. They make good money. They have and want nice things, I'm very picky with what I do and keep my work to a high standard and its seems those people appreciate that. I live in sort of a funny area. our housing market is absolutely ridiculous and that makes everyone think they have money. house rich cash poor sorta thing. its not uncommon around here for people to have 3 or 400k line of credits and those are the people I struggle with. I'm probably 10-15% lower then the average contractor. Am I being to nice lol?
Yes,
Get a credit check, put it in the bill. check for civil suits..... talk to the neighbors? get banker's reference for 5 figure jobs.....
Good credit doesn't equal a desire to pay in full or on time..... Some people are natural born tinkers/ dead beats and PROUD of it...... Avoid them like the plague they are to honest businesses.
Get references from recent subs, tradesmen they hired.......
Most dead beats eventually bragg about their behavior, surprisingly....
One demon customer can destroy the profits from 4 other "angel' customers.....

Let the competition have the high maintenance, low pay dead beats....

Far better to work 20 hours a week and get paid in full for all of them then work 80 and paid only for 40 hours......
You ARE NOT jimmy carter, no houses for free here.
If you can't make a living in 40 hours, you are not charging enough.......
You need your tradesmen wage, what you got doing this for someone else, plus $ for equipment and overhead, AND 15-20 % x ( all materials and labor costs) or more in some trades for the risk of ownership and management......
Don't Buy an underpaying Job working for cheapskates and the morally bankrupt.
Sounds like not charging enough is attracting the wrong type of clientele and change orders need to be paid when signed.
I don't agree to charging up front for change orders, but you shouldn't start the work on them until they are signed for.
Every time you do a change order, it should reflect the total contract price including; the base price, any prior change orders agreed to, this latest change order all adding up to the current project total price. Then get it signed off on.
I don't agree to charging up front for change orders, but you shouldn't start the work on them until they are signed for.
Every time you do a change order, it should reflect the total contract price including; the base price, any prior change orders agreed to, this latest change order all adding up to the current project total price. Then get is signed off on.
In 34 years I have never used a change order it was a recommendation to the OP.
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On cost plus an acknowledgement to the additional scope and cost is all that is necessary. I'll collect on the next billing cycle. Fixed price contracts I had them sign and collect at next billing cycle
In 34 years I have never used a change order it was a recommendation to the OP.
I don’t understand what you said. You have never had a change of scope in 34 years? Or you have never gotten prior approval.
I don’t understand what you said. You have never had a change of scope in 34 years? Or you have never gotten prior approval.

Took it to mean he doesn't use a change order form. We don't either, it's in our contract to be able to use text and emails
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I don’t understand what you said. You have never had a change of scope in 34 years? Or you have never gotten prior approval.
I have never used one many of my jobs I'd be using one or more per day. I don't even give an estimate it just gets done and I have never not been paid.

I agree if I used them I wouldn't expect payment just signed before the work was performed.
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I may be off base -- so excuse my possible ignorance...

People may perceive you as someone who will settle for less, came in originally less than others, doesn't present well personally -- clean shirt, trousers, newer - non smelly shoes always, haircut, shave daily, beat up - mis matched colors on your truck and other things...Is this you partially at least ??

Add perceived value to your services -- realize clients can and will pay for more than your work skill.

I want to be the most expensive guy in town, among other things...Given what you describe you're happy being a / close to a bottom feeder. Your clients are not responsible for your problems...only you can change you and your outcomes.

Stick around these forums and take note of what others do here as I have. It has worked.
Thanks for the comments guys, I'm learning a few things for sure. I definitely like the part of being able to use texts and emails instead of a signed sheets.
We fix houses. I get where your coming from but that is not me in the least. I'm always clean cut. my work rig is a little older 2012 ram 3500 longhorn bought brand new, well taken care of and low mileage. I also have a 16' enclosed trailer that 100% matches the truck. It is a very nice rig if I do say so myself. I'm not happy being a bottom feeder type. I know there are tons of guys lower priced then me. in fact I dont even know how they get by. I make 3-500 a day 5 days a week. I guess the other thing for me is that I don't feel I can charge more because I don't have the bills that other shops have. The only thing I pay for as a business expense out of my pocket is really insurance and fuel. all materials get covered by the job. My 30x50 shop is on my property, no rent to pay. I only heat it when I working in there.

Just curious. Why do you want to be the most expensive guy in town?
I hate losing to competition. By setting myself up the way I have. I feel like I can give better value to a customer. I make money, They save some money. everyone is happy.
I'm just having a hell of a time getting paid for extras
Why do you want to be the most expensive guy in town?
That's more a turn of phrase than an actual ambition (well, at least for most folks). Obviously, the other side of that coin is that if you're the cheapest guy in town, you're either providing substandard service or leaving a lot of money on the table. If the latter, that's fine if you can afford to do that, but it's still going to leave you with less toys & fun at the end of the day/career.

Saw a great turn of phrase in a video earlier today: "Don't be that guy eating soup with a fork." :LOL:
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Thanks for the comments guys, I'm learning a few things for sure. I definitely like the part of being able to use texts and emails instead of a signed sheets.
We fix houses. I get where your coming from but that is not me in the least. I'm always clean cut. my work rig is a little older 2012 ram 3500 longhorn bought brand new, well taken care of and low mileage. I also have a 16' enclosed trailer that 100% matches the truck. It is a very nice rig if I do say so myself. I'm not happy being a bottom feeder type. I know there are tons of guys lower priced then me. in fact I dont even know how they get by. I make 3-500 a day 5 days a week. I guess the other thing for me is that I don't feel I can charge more because I don't have the bills that other shops have. The only thing I pay for as a business expense out of my pocket is really insurance and fuel. all materials get covered by the job. My 30x50 shop is on my property, no rent to pay. I only heat it when I working in there.

Just curious. Why do you want to be the most expensive guy in town?
I hate losing to competition. By setting myself up the way I have. I feel like I can give better value to a customer. I make money, They save some money. everyone is happy.
I'm just having a hell of a time getting paid for extras
When it comes to change orders, it's all in the communication... when you sign the contract, you have a typical draw schedule based on your needs, and this usually covers the costs at each phase of the project... if you explain upfront that any Change Order that's needed once the project has started onsite will require 100% payment for the Change Order to fund the actual changes in the contract... otherwise, you are put in the position of funding it, and you're not a bank... it puts both the issue of what it costs and the payment to rest for both you and the customer, and there is no back loading of what is owed...

As to most expensive in town, there is ALWAYS someone more expensive or less expensive than you in your market... where you land in that spectrum as it relates to the next guy is really irrelevant... you need to charge what YOU need to charge to be in business, and that includes Profit for your company (profit is not your pay... your pay, which should include things like retirement, benefits, etc. should already be part of your Labor and/or Overhead category which make up your Hourly Rate), to fund things like 3-6 months of Capital Reserves, Emergency Fund, Equipment Fund, etc.
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I hear what your saying for sure,
What is everyone doing for billing cycles?
Normally my jobs last about a month. I take a 50% deposit and the remainder at completion.
maybe this is one of my issues?
I can see that a homeowner may be expecting to pay the last number they have in their head which was the remaining balance of the initial quote. forgetting that they have 5k in change orders and extras which they know about and have approved. Maybe I need to bill more then twice on a job and keep everything fresh in their heads.
You need to start a Corp. or LLC, rent your shop to the business corporation, then you can up grade with untaxed $ Take some $ now going into Payroll taxes for you, and invest them in the business instead (12.2% of 107.92%? of your self employment Pay) i.e. divert as much of the business profits away from regular income, to growing untaxed by various payroll taxes, business equity......Make sure you have a private garage for your private vehicles...
You need to charge enough to REPLACE your truck and trailer every 5-7 years even IF you choose not too.......Never let customers know your position regarding owning, renting or mortgaged equipment, They don't need to know, and why should someone that has saved and invested large fractions of their labor's income into equity work for less then some one paying most of the Profits into interest payments????

You can be the cheaper guy, just be 1 % cheaper than 20% cheaper...... If you get EVERY job you bid, you are way too cheap. IMHO

You are eating your seed corn when you don't charge enough to cover depreciation of your physical plant and that you have a very limited number of decades to reach your financial goals, remember every 3 rd year is going to be a recession or WORSE.... you need some back fat ($$$) to make through very slow periods of the industry, with out having to close or declare bankruptcy.
Your investment/business, needs to yield profits NORTH what you get buying stocks or any other lower risk investments.....

Make sure the client credit line isn't maxed out.....
Send a bill every week, payable monthly, with the new change orders, have a 3-5day discount for paying Cash, good check, debit, add for credit cards..... You need a fee/ mark up/ minimum ,for change orders to cover the time spent billing them out and changing as builts, and for delays caused by slow decision loops by customer, designer, permitting agencies etc...... don't forget charging for delays and demob and remob caused by changes and customer waffling.
Discuss what happens when they don't pay, or pay late, charge max interest allowed,monthly statement fee(s) contract stating legal fees are added to bills, 90 days, you have a lien.... etc....
Thanks for the great replies guys, I'm very appreciative. I have 30 more yrs in the trades to go so I want to make sure I'm doing this right lol
Why do customers think they don't owe or can negotiate at pay time ?

Me, on occasion -- I'll say I'll do this, I'll do that ---it's approx this amt...they say ok but "I" have not not done a proper change order....,So 6 weeks later it's a foggy situation, whatever they pay, I'll take it --- let's move on ? Maybe this is you ?

Not now 98% of the time. First charge more..to cover this sh*t..Say I'll work up the price for you...etc.

I just got off the phone with a customer tried to work me around... I didn't even give any attn to his line of inquiry -- All approved as written. Credit to these forums since 2006...

***Whoops -- I see you said they're fixated on the beginning number.
Thanks for the comments guys, I'm learning a few things for sure. I definitely like the part of being able to use texts and emails instead of a signed sheets.
We fix houses. I get where your coming from but that is not me in the least. I'm always clean cut. my work rig is a little older 2012 ram 3500 longhorn bought brand new, well taken care of and low mileage. I also have a 16' enclosed trailer that 100% matches the truck. It is a very nice rig if I do say so myself. I'm not happy being a bottom feeder type. I know there are tons of guys lower priced then me. in fact I dont even know how they get by. I make 3-500 a day 5 days a week. I guess the other thing for me is that I don't feel I can charge more because I don't have the bills that other shops have. The only thing I pay for as a business expense out of my pocket is really insurance and fuel. all materials get covered by the job. My 30x50 shop is on my property, no rent to pay. I only heat it when I working in there.

Just curious. Why do you want to be the most expensive guy in town?
I hate losing to competition. By setting myself up the way I have. I feel like I can give better value to a customer. I make money, They save some money. everyone is happy.
I'm just having a hell of a time getting paid for extras

I have a text or email conversation about the additional scope of work. It's real easy to refer back to those details when I need to write their invoice. If there's any question as to am I owed, the client & I both have text strings to refer back to.

Job I'm just about finished with, from the original scope of work to finish, the job literally tripled from the original bid. All change orders. Drew my 90% draw, just have final coat of finish & a half days work to finish punch list. Zero issues getting paid, because we set expectations along the way & updated the estimates as we went along.
Why do customers think they don't owe or can negotiate at pay time ?

Me, on occasion -- I'll say I'll do this, I'll do that ---it's approx this amt...they say ok but "I" have not not done a proper change order....,So 6 weeks later it's a foggy situation, whatever they pay, I'll take it --- let's move on ? Maybe this is you ?

Not now 98% of the time. First charge more..to cover this sh*t..Say I'll work up the price for you...etc.

I just got off the phone with a customer tried to work me around... I didn't even give any attn to his line of inquiry -- All approved as written. Credit to these forums since 2006...

***Whoops -- I see you said they're fixated on the beginning number.
that sounds a bit like me. that's why I'm here. willing to learn from guys that have been around the block a few times. I would like this company to succeed and have something I can leave to my kids or whatever. Looks like I have some business practices to change.
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