cement board as shower pan

Mike Finley said:

...and it's acceptable by the TCNA ...

Click to expand...

That's the gold standard when it comes to tile methods. Are you planning to submit your "system" to them? Just curious.

Is your method going to come in a kit...or will you just be selling the information on how it's done?

I realize you're all cloak and dagger at this point... but I'm still not hearing anything revolutionary.

Pre-slope with backers
Vinyl liner over that to a clamping drain
Some kind of base over that for the floor tile
Backers to the wall with a liquid & mesh waterproofer

I'm curious about the cost as well. A mini unit of 9235 is still a pricey bugger (plus the mesh comes folded and creased which is a huge PITA). If I recall, the mini unit only does 30 sq ft. Unless there's a unit somewhere that just comes with the 6" roll of mesh. Even the liquid only hydro ban is about $100 a gallon.

As for using the liquid only products with a mesh... that sounds like using a product in a different way than it was intended. Hydroban was specifically designed to be used WITHOUT a mesh.

Welcome back gentlemen, Hydro ban literature says fabric is required only "at all joint, coves and corners" I'm reading that from the literature I have in front of me.So, I'm not suggesting anyone should use a product for something it was not intended for.A mini unit has about 50 sq.ft coverage. Enough to do a standard (48x34) pan with multiple coats. The pros like yourselves buy in quantity. The $200 number I've used would be an average cost if you purchase only enough for one pan.The costs go down per pan since your buying in a larger quantity you will have enough material to do multiple pans after the initial investment. A commercial unit ( 5 gal.- 250 sq.ft. is not 5 times the price) I have talked with LATICRETE about the possibility of including fabric with the mini units and rightfully so, they will wait to see the response and acceptance of my technique first.

The quote "and it's acceptable by the TCNA" comes from Mike's question. I didn't say it was endorsed yet at this point. I said early in the thread that I have been contacted by the TCNA as to the process to have it considered for the handbook. That takes at least 2 years. They are accepting requests now for the 2011 book.

Let me ask a question first. Is it true that the traditional method of mortar base pre-slope EXPECTS that the water WILL penetrate the tile and grout AND the mortar.So, water transferring and being trapped into the mortar
is just part of what is to be expected. Weep holes are designed to allow the water an escape but I'm sure you know that they can't be 100% effective in doing so. I'm trying to waterproof the pan above the substrate ( mortar in the traditional case) My liquid waterproofing is in theory doing the same thing as the liner except that the water isn't trapped below.Any water that penetrates the tile and grout(this will be a very, very small amount) will evaporate up and out. Not down and out only.

Am I thinking so wrong here? EVERY mortar base I have taken out had standing water trapped in the liner.No one has been able to actually prove to me that weep hole/pre-slope combination will work all the time. You will say that the pan was improperly built. Then EVERY pan I have seen HAS been improperly built and I go back to my statement that some of the problem is that we are not training the younger guys the proper technique. So, this technique I have come up with replaces mud set pans,does it well,and does it for less that the higher priced alternatives on the market. I wait for comments and again welcome critique.

This base was done less then 2 years ago in a new house

There's very little left here to debate until you're willing to roll out your magic method. Saying "it's a secret" is getting old.

You can trot out photos all day long but who's to say that mortar bed was installed correctly? The fact that it was cracking through the grout tells me it wasn't. Some guys can't pour piss out of a boot if the directions are on the heal--but that doesn't mean the method they were "attempting" is inherently bad.

A pre-slope, vinyl liner, and mortar bed shower system is still a good method if done correctly by an experienced installer. Is it the most efficient, longest lasting technology? No, not anymore. Yes, Kerdi is favored among many professionals because it's clean, labor efficient, and about the most waterproof AND vapor proof product on the market. There are also other systems available which compete with it where pans are concerned: Wedi and Tile-Redi for example.

If I recall, one of your motivations for developing your method is to make it more DIY friendly. I'll not debate the efficacy of that motivation--but I will say that as professionals we've humored you up to his point. If you'll read the TOS of this forum, you'll find it was never intended to be a mining ground for those wanting to bounce ideas for new products or services. For those of us who participate in this forum, you're not solving any problem. We already have alternate technologies to a vinyl pan shower that are better than having to get elbow deep in black goo (or green, as the case may be). :laughing:

Before you launch into a passionate defense, let me make a few things clear to you. You might be thinking all the eye rolling is mere ego or protectionism of our trade and livelihood. But anyone who's been around the block in construction can tell you that any system can be f-ed up by a non-professional--and more often than not is f-ed up by wanna-be professionals.

When it comes to building a shower, there will always be factors that no amount of streamlining will remove from the equation. Things like plumbing and framing and the knowledge and skill which comes only with repetition.

I don't mean to trash every homeowner who's ever drove a nail or set a piece of tile in their own house. But I've worked in enough houses and torn out enough things built by well-meaning HO hands to know it's usually the next owner who pays the price for the sloppy work. A weakness or flaw in installation can many times take YEARS to make itself known and can usually only be fixed by completely tearing out and starting over.

Speaking only for myself, I'm not concerned in the least about a new DIY technique for tiling showers. There will always be those who want to save a little money or try tiling just because they enjoy the challenge. Those are not the folks who would hire a professional in the first place--regardless of the existence of your DIY method.

At the end of the day, I don't doubt the possibilty that by combining existing waterproofing liquids and backers you can come up with something watertight enough for a shower. The question then is: Why would anyone use it as an alternative to the more mainstream methods and technologies available? Just because it's cheaper? I doubt very much that it is if you include labor cost in the equation.

Best of luck to you... maybe we'll see you at Coverings 2010. :thumbsup: