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Carpentry becoming compulsory trade debate !!!
I just read an article in the Toronto Sun that the Ontario College of Trades is being asked designate carpentry as a compulsory trade.
Just wondering what everyone's point of view is on this topic and if your for this movement or against it. Since I do have my Red Seal certificate I think this is great and should've happened years ago. I'm not aware of any of the cons though if this does happen. Whats everyone's thoughts ??
Just wondering what everyone's point of view is on this topic and if your for this movement or against it. Since I do have my Red Seal certificate I think this is great and should've happened years ago. I'm not aware of any of the cons though if this does happen. Whats everyone's thoughts ??
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Can you explain that a little more ?? Are you referring to "trade school" , home renovation tech, or a woodworking course at a college ??
Canada has a certification program ---a better explanation from a Canadian would be welcome-----
I believe this is the article to save which the op is referring: http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/07/carpenter-certification-wont-hurt-construction-industry-hoskins
TORONTO*-*Ontario’s construction industry would continue to thrive even if workers who do carpentry were required to be certified, Economic Development Minister Erik Hoskins says.
As the Toronto Sun revealed, the Ontario College of Trades is considering a motion to designate general carpentry as a compulsory trade.
Such a move would mean that individuals who perform this work will need to obtain a certificate of qualification.
“I am a medical doctor — I’m regulated and licensed as well ... it will elevate the role and, quite frankly, the prestige attached to the skilled trade professions,” Hoskins said Friday.
Ontario Progressive Conservative MPP Garfield Dunlop has called certification of carpenters an “insane” act that would cripple the construction industry.
A spokesperson for the carpenter’s union could not be reached Friday.
Karen Renkema, of the Stop The Trades Tax Campaign, a coalition of Ontario employers, said carpentry work is so broad in scope that requiring everyone doing the work to pass the same exam is unrealistic.
Renkema predicts a shortage of carpenters and higher costs for everything from bridge building to office construction to home renovations if the College adopts the motion.
The vast majority of people who are now employed in jobs that require some carpentry do not have a certificate of qualification, she said.
“It will be so difficult to find a licensed carpenter to do a home renovation,” she said.
yep that is the article i'm referring too. i guess it really only applies to canadians though. its a debate on wether its a good thing or bad for the industry, even if it doesnt apply to you feel free to put in your thoughts. I just want to get a good overall idea on what people think about it.
I think it would be a nightmare. If it was in the States, I would look at it as a way for the unions to takeover the industry completely.
What types of carpentry? Cabinet maker? Handyman? Are you going to make the small repair guy who fixes doors and windows get certified in framing? Then are you going to make them get certified in commercial framing even though he only repairs doors or fixes roofs?
Then like the article says, how will you implement it. Are there enough classrooms for everyone, and if not, how will little old granny find a guy to fix that broken piece of trim that is falling down. Then once the vast majority of guys are certified, what do you do with all the instructors who are now not needed? If you need to go to school, most guys will do something else and there will be a shortage in the trades.
Stupid idea. It may work if it is a two day certificate that just goes over the basics, but to tell a handyman he needs to know how to frame an office building, or tell a plumber he needs to be a certified "carpenter" just because he needs to drill some holes, or add a support joist would be chaotic to say the least.
Besides, they quote a medical doctor. So if I get certified, do I get to charge 250,000 dollars a year and live next to this guy because I install windows for a living and am now licensed and certified?
So many ways this could be bad.
What types of carpentry? Cabinet maker? Handyman? Are you going to make the small repair guy who fixes doors and windows get certified in framing? Then are you going to make them get certified in commercial framing even though he only repairs doors or fixes roofs?
Then like the article says, how will you implement it. Are there enough classrooms for everyone, and if not, how will little old granny find a guy to fix that broken piece of trim that is falling down. Then once the vast majority of guys are certified, what do you do with all the instructors who are now not needed? If you need to go to school, most guys will do something else and there will be a shortage in the trades.
Stupid idea. It may work if it is a two day certificate that just goes over the basics, but to tell a handyman he needs to know how to frame an office building, or tell a plumber he needs to be a certified "carpenter" just because he needs to drill some holes, or add a support joist would be chaotic to say the least.
Besides, they quote a medical doctor. So if I get certified, do I get to charge 250,000 dollars a year and live next to this guy because I install windows for a living and am now licensed and certified?
So many ways this could be bad.
I guess the real question is: does licensing carpenters work in the states? Does it help raise rates for legit guys and keep hacks out (or at least down)?
If it works then I say adopt a similar system. If it doesn't help then tell the government to keep their nose outta out business (like that will ever happen)
If it works then I say adopt a similar system. If it doesn't help then tell the government to keep their nose outta out business (like that will ever happen)
I totally 100% think it should be compulsory.
A hair dresser of all things needs a license, yet a carpenter.. a structural trade.. requires what? A pick up truck and hammer?
I hope it becomes compulsory, that way the good guys can justify their rates because some cheap hack won't under cut them.
I could go on for days but this is all i will write for now . :thumbup:
A hair dresser of all things needs a license, yet a carpenter.. a structural trade.. requires what? A pick up truck and hammer?
I hope it becomes compulsory, that way the good guys can justify their rates because some cheap hack won't under cut them.
I could go on for days but this is all i will write for now . :thumbup:
I think it would be great. You have to submit a valid SS number to enroll. Insurance and continuing ed required to for yearly renewal. Customer to be held responsible/fined for hiring unregistered contractors. That would be as popular as the Affordable care act.
As I recall, Canada already has a shortage of people in the trades.I think it would be a nightmare. If it was in the States, I would look at it as a way for the unions to takeover the industry completely.
What types of carpentry? Cabinet maker? Handyman? Are you going to make the small repair guy who fixes doors and windows get certified in framing? Then are you going to make them get certified in commercial framing even though he only repairs doors or fixes roofs?
Then like the article says, how will you implement it. Are there enough classrooms for everyone, and if not, how will little old granny find a guy to fix that broken piece of trim that is falling down. Then once the vast majority of guys are certified, what do you do with all the instructors who are now not needed? If you need to go to school, most guys will do something else and there will be a shortage in the trades.
Stupid idea. It may work if it is a two day certificate that just goes over the basics, but to tell a handyman he needs to know how to frame an office building, or tell a plumber he needs to be a certified "carpenter" just because he needs to drill some holes, or add a support joist would be chaotic to say the least.
Besides, they quote a medical doctor. So if I get certified, do I get to charge 250,000 dollars a year and live next to this guy because I install windows for a living and am now licensed and certified?
So many ways this could be bad.
you would never know it by the rates we get framing houses.As I recall, Canada already has a shortage of people in the trades.
Imo there might be a shortage because it doesn't pay enough. (except the regulated trades EG plumbing/electrical)
I agree with that...While I have worked with a lot of decent guys without tickets, I believe if certain tasks required a ticket, the prestige and pay scale would go up. Big problem with small time residential contractors is the little barrier to entry, tv salesman yesterday, going to build a deck today.I totally 100% think it should be compulsory.
A hair dresser of all things needs a license, yet a carpenter.. a structural trade.. requires what? A pick up truck and hammer?
I hope it becomes compulsory, that way the good guys can justify their rates because some cheap hack won't under cut them.
I could go on for days but this is all i will write for now . :thumbup:
Regulating the trade is a good idea, it will show a minimum standard and hopefully have some accountability. However, the trade needs better definition.
Currently a red seal carpenter in Canada is expected to qualify and complete every trade except plumbing, electrical, gas fitter, and I'm sure I may have missed one or two others.
If the carpenter license was for carpentry only, yes, go for it.
Currently a red seal carpenter in Canada is expected to qualify and complete every trade except plumbing, electrical, gas fitter, and I'm sure I may have missed one or two others.
If the carpenter license was for carpentry only, yes, go for it.
Not sure about your area but around here every fishermen and woodsmen is a carpenter as well. So there's shortage of people who know what they're doing.you would never know it by the rates we get framing houses.
Imo there might be a shortage because it doesn't pay enough. (except the regulated trades EG plumbing/electrical)
I am not sure about in the states but there are plenty of "licensed" hacks around here. Some of the best Finish Carpenters/Cabinet makers I have ever met were old school guys who learned the trade from scratch or were trained from a family member such as a father or grandfather.
Some of the biggest douche-bag butchers I have met were bragging that they have a "ticket" before I had even seen the the work they do. Or they make comments like " I am the only licensed carpenter in this company"
Some of the biggest douche-bag butchers I have met were bragging that they have a "ticket" before I had even seen the the work they do. Or they make comments like " I am the only licensed carpenter in this company"
This is why I'll be challenging that exam ASAFP! I figured it was coming but never heard anything about it until now... Should have that sucker within a month or 2
The framing contractor is looking for a laborer. He must find one that passed tests making him qualified for:
Building and hanging doors
Constructing double hung, slider, awning, and casement windows
Installing wood, vinyl, aluminum and cementious siding and fascia and soffits
Framing including layout, calculating and cutting rafters, and stairs
Constructing and installing cabinets
Hanging drywall
Installing hardwood/softwood and laminate flooring
Concrete form construction
Finish and trim carpentry
Installing suspended ceilings
Building wooden ships
Constructing roller coasters
And more.
Good luck. Do you really expect the HO is going to look for this guy to install his screen door or install a new hinge on his cabinet?
Building and hanging doors
Constructing double hung, slider, awning, and casement windows
Installing wood, vinyl, aluminum and cementious siding and fascia and soffits
Framing including layout, calculating and cutting rafters, and stairs
Constructing and installing cabinets
Hanging drywall
Installing hardwood/softwood and laminate flooring
Concrete form construction
Finish and trim carpentry
Installing suspended ceilings
Building wooden ships
Constructing roller coasters
And more.
Good luck. Do you really expect the HO is going to look for this guy to install his screen door or install a new hinge on his cabinet?
Its interesting to see what everyone's view is on this topic. Especially Canadians because from what I see they all agree it should be. I have to agree also. When you look at someone installing doors, trim, hardwood floors etc..it seems overkill to have to have a red seal certificate ( or be a registered apprentice ) to do it but when you start looking at framing, concrete forming, decks or anything that is structural it makes perfect sense to need one.
just as an example. An electrician does his job monday- friday, then has a framing company he does on weekends. As long as his work passes a framing inspection everything is fine. But, its illegal for anyone who is not an electrician ( or apprentice) to do anything electrical for a homeowner. Even adding one receptacle to a circuit. Even if there was a permit and the building inspector would pass it, no one can touch electrical work unless your qualified too. There is such a huge difference between the two tasks yet the simplest one needs to be done by a qualified person while the other can be done by anybody with a hammer.
I dont think that all parts of carpentry needs to be done by a licensed carpenter but definately structural work. If we HAVE to hire an electrician to install a dimmer switch then they should have to hire us. ( nothing against you sparkys just using you as an example to prove a point )
just as an example. An electrician does his job monday- friday, then has a framing company he does on weekends. As long as his work passes a framing inspection everything is fine. But, its illegal for anyone who is not an electrician ( or apprentice) to do anything electrical for a homeowner. Even adding one receptacle to a circuit. Even if there was a permit and the building inspector would pass it, no one can touch electrical work unless your qualified too. There is such a huge difference between the two tasks yet the simplest one needs to be done by a qualified person while the other can be done by anybody with a hammer.
I dont think that all parts of carpentry needs to be done by a licensed carpenter but definately structural work. If we HAVE to hire an electrician to install a dimmer switch then they should have to hire us. ( nothing against you sparkys just using you as an example to prove a point )
Even for electricians they can have labourers for a maximum 3 months... At that point if that framing labourer is any good he should be given an apprenticeship and taught the trade properly.The framing contractor is looking for a laborer. He must find one that passed tests making him qualified for:
Building and hanging doors
Constructing double hung, slider, awning, and casement windows
Installing wood, vinyl, aluminum and cementious siding and fascia and soffits
Framing including layout, calculating and cutting rafters, and stairs
Constructing and installing cabinets
Hanging drywall
Installing hardwood/softwood and laminate flooring
Concrete form construction
Finish and trim carpentry
Installing suspended ceilings
Building wooden ships
Constructing roller coasters
And more.
Good luck. Do you really expect the HO is going to look for this guy to install his screen door or install a new hinge on his cabinet?
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
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