If you've got a smoking gun where they told you to order it (e-mail, fax, voice mail, etc), then I say bill it.

 

In commercial work we bill for stored material.

 

A GC is no different from a homeowner in this respect. First, you sign a contract before anything else happens. Second, part of the terms of that contract is that you get a deposit, at least enough to cover initial materials.

If you did neither, you are at the mercy of the GC's good will.

 

Been doing commercial work for years and have never hot 1 cent up front. These guys would laugh in your face. You bill monthly for completed work and material on site or stored in secure location. They hold 10 % until they get final payment can take a year.

 

Commercial work is a different animal. There's no indication that this is anything other than residential.

 

I fail to see how commercial/residential makes any difference. Learn me sumpin'.

 

If you can prove he told you to order it, bill him. I would also let him know it is taking up room that you need for projects that are actually going on, and he will either have to take immediate delivery or start paying you to store it.

 

I fail to see how commercial/residential makes any difference. Learn me sumpin'.

In the commercial world you're expected to have some "working capital". A deposit up front will never happen.

 

This is what makes it so hard to play with the big boys. Fronting 100,000 dollars in material for 30-60 days, then the labor to install it and having a million dollar performance bond tends to weed out the small guys. Usually you bill the material as soon as it hits the ground, but you still need to have the capital and credit to front it.

I wouldn't order even 5,000 dollars worth of material without the understanding (contract) that it will be dropped at the jobsite and a bill will be with it. I've had people tell me to "just order it" before. No thanks. If I can "just order it", they can just "pay for it".

 

If I can "just order it", they can just "pay for it".

Damn that's a sure fire classic.

Bravo :clap:

 

How did the GC "make you order it" (the material)?:whistling

 

VinylHanger...why are you bonding a job as a sub-contractor? That's the GC's job, I've only had one GC ask me to bond...I asked him where his money was? I didn't bid that job

 

Sorry, I didn't see this.

Like was said, most large jobs want a performance bond that IIRC, costs about 10 percent of your cost. Better credit, more assets, less cost but still expensive. This lets the GC know that you won't pull the bid out from under him after he sends his numbers in, as well as getting the job done for the price specified.

These are on large jobs. 100,000-1,000,000 dollar types. The last company I worked for did these types of jobs, so my explanation may not be exact, but pretty much sums it up. They are way above my lowly station these days. And for now, happily so.

 

VinylHanger...why are you bonding a job as a sub-contractor? That's the GC's job, I've only had one GC ask me to bond...I asked him where his money was? I didn't bid that job

We often have to get a bond as sub contractors if our scope is over 100 k. Then we just add that cost to the bid.

 

See we don't bond as subs in Canada, that's the GC's job

 

On the commercial jobs that I do, I req payments at the end of the month. The 1st req is material and set up as only a small percentage of the job is complete. Then in subsequent months the percentage completed is requisitioned. If it were my job, I would bill for the material.

 

ha, that's the funniest thing I've heard in my life.

 

I've been stuck with so much crap over the years because I got excited I thought I had a job then had it fall apart. No cash or contract it doesn't get ordered.

As for your situation I don't know...

 

A job is irrelevant till I have a deposit and contract.

Do you commercial guys make enough money to justify the problems/slow pay?

 

I am in commercial. In California, in sure all the states, you rarely get anything up front. You have to wait a month to bill for your work, and then wait for the owner to pay the gc and the gc to pay you. You really only need capital for labor, since you don't have to pay for the material right away. My suppliers give us 30 day done 60 to pay invoices.

In this situation I do have a contract signed but we have not set foot in the jobsite yet. I was told to order the material ASAP to avoid delaying the project schedule, but the job got pushed back for months. My 30 day perio was due so I had to pay out of pocket. The gc just told me to hold on to the material and that I can't invoice him for material since we did not use it on the job yet. It's been 6 months how long do I have to wait. Contract does not really cover this since I am sure it does not happen much.

 

So the GC told you to order the materials, told you to hold the materials and told you he wasn't going to pay you for the materials.

How is that working out for you? He is running your business.

On a side note, why haven't you been using this material on other projects for the past few months? This is drywall & joint compound?

 

Look through the threads on contracts. Lots of info on just this kind of situation. It does happen all the time. Even if it didn't, you should have it in your contract anyway. Heck, after one thread, I put a no pet-sitting clause in my contract. Just in case.

What do you do if the GC decides not to do the project. After 6 months, that usually means that there is a hold up somewhere, usually money related and in my admittedly limited experience with commercial work, it may not go. If it does, it may have a change of scope, which may make the materials you have useless or obsolete for the new scope.

I don't know if 5,000 dollars worth of material is a big deal to you or not, but to me it would be a large hit. One that would put me under in the present economy. If you are of a size that 5,000 dollars won't hurt you much, you can probably afford a lawyer to help you make a good and solid contract that spells out your steps in these situations.

You have essentially funded the GC's ability to start the job at his pleasure. I just wonder how eager he would be to do that , if he had to hold on to 5,000 dollars worth of material for an indefinite time.

 

I'm finishing a 300k job and approaching 50 % profit.

 

in my experience you can submit anything you want..initally you are just giving a proposal/estimate...

if they accept they come back with a PO for the job...my paperwork was usually worth crap on commercial work..

especially if they used AIA guidelines and forms.

you can bill them for anything you want..doesn't mean they are going to pay..which you obviously found out.

I see no recourse for you without any of the aforementioned..

 

and not to be argumentative, but you can absolutely get money upfront and progress payments..

if materials are exorbitant, special order etc..they will pay required deposits..
and progress..

i did a 75,000 commercial job once...got 19000 upfront..got another 19000 when materials came in.. ad got payments after phases of our work relatively quickly.

I have been on the other side of the spectrum too..had 105 retainers..waited 60 days etc..but i never worked for those people again..

just because you're small doesn't mean they wont work with you and help you do the job..if they believe in your competence and like your price..they will

 

I am in commercial. In California, in sure all the states, you rarely get anything up front. You have to wait a month to bill for your work, and then wait for the owner to pay the gc and the gc to pay you. You really only need capital for labor, since you don't have to pay for the material right away. My suppliers give us 30 day done 60 to pay invoices.

In this situation I do have a contract signed but we have not set foot in the jobsite yet. I was told to order the material ASAP to avoid delaying the project schedule, but the job got pushed back for months. My 30 day perio was due so I had to pay out of pocket. The gc just told me to hold on to the material and that I can't invoice him for material since we did not use it on the job yet. It's been 6 months how long do I have to wait. Contract does not really cover this since I am sure it does not happen much.

Your subcontract should tie in the AIA A201 General Conditions of the project specs (at least when I write one up they do.) Somewhere in there is a clause for delays and costs incurred relating to such. Again, if youve got the proof that the GC made you order the material, then you've got every right to bill it. As the GC if I intended to start a project and ordered materials, and the client delays, I'd be billing them citing that General Conditions clause.

 

Why not just return it, pay the restocking charge and delivery?

50% of your money and room in your yard is better than what you have now, call it a lesson learned (as all of us have done) and when the GC calls and is ready to sign, tell him the quote is no longer valid, the new amount is the original plus your 50% loss as above

 

So the GC told you to order the materials, told you to hold the materials and told you he wasn't going to pay you for the materials.

How is that working out for you? He is running your business.

On a side note, why haven't you been using this material on other projects for the past few months? This is drywall & joint compound?

Because I didn't order joint compound or drywall. I can get that easy, so I knew I didn't have to order that yet until the project, demo and other work started.

What I did order was special order for the acoustical ceilings that takes a while to get to my suppliers yard and has a no refund policy since it is a special order for the supplier as well.

Gc used a pretty bad example when I asked for money. He said he was holding about 50k worth of material on his own for the owner. And if he would complain to the owners like I do they would not work with him. So he said to learn to be a business man and to change my attitude. I knew the comparison was off, but held off after he said he would pay for material increases.

I also didn't complain more since this gc always pays on time on other jobs he gives me and he kept me real busy last year, not I am not getting much from him now and this is taking way too long.

 

My first lawyer told me GCs lie to everyone (banker, customer, subcontractor) to get what they want. Looks like you're the proud owner of special order acoustical ceiling materials. I hope the project eventually starts so you can sell it. Have you been by the project to see that there isn't another sub doing it?

 

Because I didn't order joint compound or drywall. I can get that easy, so I knew I didn't have to order that yet until the project, demo and other work started.

What I did order was special order for the acoustical ceilings that takes a while to get to my suppliers yard and has a no refund policy since it is a special order for the supplier as well.

Gc used a pretty bad example when I asked for money. He said he was holding about 50k worth of material on his own for the owner. And if he would complain to the owners like I do they would not work with him. So he said to learn to be a business man and to change my attitude. I knew the comparison was off, but held off after he said he would pay for material increases.

I also didn't complain more since this gc always pays on time on other jobs he gives me and he kept me real busy last year, not I am not getting much from him now and this is taking way too long.

Seriously?! I'd be showing him how good a businessman you are by having your lawyer send him a letter. You're getting screwed pal. Time to look out for yourself and get whats yours.