Where are you located? In CA without a valid contractors license you have no leg to stand on. You can not lien, sue or demand any type or form of payment without a license.

 

I'm not sure if that is totaly accurate.If an employee of a sub is not paid I am pretty sure that the employee can file a lien.

 

I am located in Illinois and we have strict laws regarding this. I just can't seem to get a definitive answer.

Personally I would think since the state requires licensing unlicensed people would be without rights. That is just my personal opinion though.

 

Everyone has rights. You can file a lien all you want. What happens after that depends on having correct documentation and other similar stuff. If you file a lien incorrectly, then you will be at a disadvantage. If you file for too much, again at a disadvantage.

Besides, liens don't do anything to someone who knows how to handle them. Posting a lien will get you nowhere. They make lien insurance for these situations and the bank is more than willing to let the lien-ee know how to do it. The bank is the primary lienholder and they will find anyway possible to keep it that way.

Tell the customer you will come over with a signed lien release as long as they have a signed check.

 

In Minnesota anyone can file a lein, an unlicensed person filing a lein could be sued for doing so. The lein will still be on file. You have 2 issues, proving the person who filed has no right to do so and then having the lein removed. Both will take time. After this you can sue the leiner for damages. This is serious stuff where I work.

 

The customer is being advised not to pay me no matter what I do until the lien is released. He gave me a check for $10,000 then stopped payment on it. This along with another customer who's check for $7,334 bounced has seriously impaired our ability to operate. I am a small guy and have basically run out of money even for the attorney's fees. Worse yet I have 5 different customers calling wanting to know when their getting their roofs. The situation is quickly spiraling out of control and last week I borrowed the last of my available credit line to make payroll.

 

I am located in Illinois and we have strict laws regarding this. I just can't seem to get a definitive answer.

Personally I would think since the state requires licensing unlicensed people would be without rights. That is just my personal opinion though.

The customer is being advised not to pay me no matter what I do until the lien is released. He gave me a check for $10,000 then stopped payment on it. This along with another customer who's check for $7,334 bounced has seriously impaired our ability to operate. I am a small guy and have basically run out of money even for the attorney's fees. Worse yet I have 5 different customers calling wanting to know when their getting their roofs. The situation is quickly spiraling out of control and last week I borrowed the last of my available credit line to make payroll.

None of this makes sense.
Are you a Licensed GC and the roofer is your sub?
Are you the un-licensed roofer/sub?
Are you the home owner?
Why did the HO stop payment?
Did you have a contract with progress payments?
Nobody can help you if you don't fill in the blanks.

 

Yes employees can file liens. Like I said, anyone can file a lien, but it could have implications down the line if you are not allowed to. Workers can file liens, but I'm not positive in every single state. I would think so. There is still the process of properly filing a lien. If it's not, then you could be countersued for damages incurred to the lien-ee. Either way, lawyers usually duke it out. 'Tis the season too, so most are on vacation or not around.

Your best bet is to contact the HO and have a talk with them. If that doesn't go through, then you need to get in touch with the HO's lawyer and your lawyer should be doing that. But if you have no money, you are in a real predicament.

Contact the HO and beg if you have to.

 

I am neither a GC nor a Sub. I have a company that does roofing, siding, windows, etc. We run an ad people call we go sell them product and we work with a number of different subs to get the jobs installed. This sub signed a master agreement saying he was responsible for all permits, licenses, and insurance to complete this work. His work is not in question and I believe he is licensed in KY where I first began working with him.

The Homeowner stopped payment on the advice of his banker and his attorney. I don't really blame him for this but I have alot wrapped up in this project. It has been a nightmare through all phases and is way over budget. At this point I am only trying to minimize my losses.

Putting lipstick on a pig I have been told.

 

This changes everything, your company does sales only and hands it off to the (low, I assume) bidder of your choice. You rely entirely on subs that you haven't even checked out properly. Dude, it sounds like you didn't do anything to protect the homeowner, so now they are protecting themselves. Ya lost me now!

 

Hang on a second here...you advertise, get the job, give it to someone else who signs the contract, who do they sign with, you or the HO? If it's the HO why is the HO paying you and not them?, If they sign the contract with you and you in turn have a contract with the HO then you are the GC.

Sounds like you are trying to beat the system and got caught

 

Why did the HO stop payment if the quality of work is not in question?

 

Not beating any system or trying to either.

The homeowner signs a contract with my company.

My company then hires a subcontractor we have a number of them we work with. Each sub signs a master sub contract agreement which is good for one year. Then each job is ran on an attachment A basis. The attachment A outlines costs and scope of work that sort of thing.

Our homeowner really never does any business with the sub. They communicate and pay us. Until this fiasco anyway. I understand this is much like what a GC does however I really wouldn't consider myself or my company a GC. Really we are just salesman. I have an installation manager who oversees all the installs, customer issues, service, and ordering. We were doing very good but the old saying when it rains it pours is definitely ringing true at this time.

The homeowner stopped payment so he wouldn't have to pay for his roof twice. If he pays me and the subs lien is deemed good then he could possibly be forced to pay the sub if I didn't. The homeowner is only trying to guard against double payment or liens.

We are getting off point here. The question still remains unanswered really but it seems that the lien can be filed it just can't be perfected.

 

The homeowner signs a contract with my company.

My company then hires a subcontractor

You are a GC, like it or not

Now follow the rules like the rest of us

Ins, WC, etc. LICENSE

I know you don't believe it, but you are trying to beat the system...no sympathy from me

 

You did not read through everything I posted in your other thread about this matter. I know what I am talking about, especially when it comes to the Illinois Mechanics Lien Act.

Firstly, youare the "Primary" contractor by Illinois Mechanics Lien Law definition. You have the contract with the HO. Your roofing sub is unlicensed in Illinois it sounds like. That is reason enough to challenge the lien.

The expedite the court proceedings, as I informed you previously, you need to file a motion for him to bring the lien suit to court. He will then have 30 days to do so. If he does not, the lien is wiped out. End of story.

Also, if you desire, you can sue the sub for filing a frivolous lien action.

Check out the site link I provided for you in the other thread from the Chicago based attorney named Thomas Westgard. If you just Google Illinois Mechanicl Lien, you will stumble on his site within 1-2 pages also. All the information and proper forms and instructions are on his site. If I put that information on another thread, look for a thread started by me recently called Illinois Mechanics Lien Info in the roofing section, or something similar to that.

I know it is stressfull, but even if you have to stay up late at night read through all of the stuff I already posted. Or, pay a lawyer $ 500.00 to $ 1,000.00 to tell you less than that amount of information.

Challenge The Lien.....NOW!

Ed

 

You did not read through everything I posted in your other thread about this matter. I know what I am talking about, especially when it comes to the Illinois Mechanics Lien Act.

Firstly, youare the "Primary" contractor by Illinois Mechanics Lien Law definition. You have the contract with the HO. Your roofing sub is unlicensed in Illinois it sounds like. That is reason enough to challenge the lien.

The expedite the court proceedings, as I informed you previously, you need to file a motion for him to bring the lien suit to court. He will then have 30 days to do so. If he does not, the lien is wiped out. End of story.

Also, if you desire, you can sue the sub for filing a frivolous lien action.

Check out the site link I provided for you in the other thread from the Chicago based attorney named Thomas Westgard. If you just Google Illinois Mechanicl Lien, you will stumble on his site within 1-2 pages also. All the information and proper forms and instructions are on his site. If I put that information on another thread, look for a thread started by me recently called Illinois Mechanics Lien Info in the roofing section, or something similar to that.

I know it is stressfull, but even if you have to stay up late at night read through all of the stuff I already posted. Or, pay a lawyer $ 500.00 to $ 1,000.00 to tell you less than that amount of information.

Challenge The Lien.....NOW!

Ed

Thank you Ed. Finally a voice of reason. I will do as you have instructed. Please email me @ efritts233@hotmail.com I would love to get some advice from you as it seems you know what your talking about.

 

Look, I don't want to see you get screwed OK. The guy can lein. Ed is right, fight the lein right now. If the guy presented himself as a licensed contractor he's screwed, if your paperwork doesn't support the sub contractor status, you may have problems. All states are different. But whatever I think doesn't matter, whatever the judge interprets is what counts. You did hire him. I had a trim sub that screwed up a job so I didn't pay him. I had to redo the job and I paid for the new materials. In spite of his claims to be paid, I was still the GC and responsible and so are you. If it wasn't for you that guy would never had worked on that house. It sounds like your trying to fix this but you need money to do it. So first fight the lein, then if that works out you and the HO can finish things up. I took an all day class on MN Lein Law taught by 2 attorney's that were experts at it. I still have the books just in case. I learned that lein law is complicated, takes longer than you want and doesn't always mean the person who is right wins. I hope the good guys win!

 

Look, I don't want to see you get screwed OK. The guy can lein. Ed is right, fight the lein right now. If the guy presented himself as a licensed contractor he's screwed, if your paperwork doesn't support the sub contractor status, you may have problems. All states are different. But whatever I think doesn't matter, whatever the judge interprets is what counts. You did hire him. I had a trim sub that screwed up a job so I didn't pay him. I had to redo the job and I paid for the new materials. In spite of his claims to be paid, I was still the GC and responsible and so are you. If it wasn't for you that guy would never had worked on that house. It sounds like your trying to fix this but you need money to do it. So first fight the lein, then if that works out you and the HO can finish things up. I took an all day class on MN Lein Law taught by 2 attorney's that were experts at it. I still have the books just in case. I learned that lein law is complicated, takes longer than you want and doesn't always mean the person who is right wins. I hope the good guys win!

Thank you for your help as well. I am trying to do the right thing and protect my homeowner here. I even like the sub in question but business is business. He did not complete the job and seriously overbilled. I cannot take it laying down.

I miss working for the big companies that can handle these kind of hits but I am really still in start up here and this has crippled me.

 

What he did was come to me for money well before he was owed anything. I asked what was going on he said he had to go back to KY for another job he had sold on his own. I said no money until job is finished. I don't believe in starting a new job until all old jobs are closed out. He offered to leave behind some of his helpers to finish. I said I hired you not them. He then submitted his bill for payment and it was literally $10,000.00 more than the amount we had agreed upon. I said no way I will pay you for your expenses and you can finish and get paid what we agreed upon or you can go home your call. He left. The jobsite was a disaster.

 

So the Roofer is away from home, staying in a hotel,
almost finished, still got people on the job, more work at home (that pays)
mortgage is due and it's Christmas.

You are refusing to pay.

Does he have Lien Rights ? H3LL yes.

 

Obviously this guy is pushing the limits on everything, Ed is the expert in the Illinois field here and I really want to know the results of all this. Not that I want to see anyone get screwed but certain things just aren't adding up from a legal point of view.

Hopefully ED the ROOFER reads this, I don't think you have the answers

You advertise for roofing services

You sign a contract with a HO to complete the services

You hire (sub contract) an unlicensed out of state contractor to perform the services

You are aware of his status (unlicensed) and still proceed to contract with him

I'm not at all familar with Illinois Licensing and Lien laws, I know mine and that is a grounds for no one to get paid, as a matter of fact it is grounds for criminal charges with fines/jail and NEVER getting a license.

*** Oh yea and pay when payed, that doesn't fly either.

 

So far everyone is being pretty nice about this, but the facts as presented make some of us suspicious. The big question was concerning lein law, but as Chris Johnson says and I said it too, WHAT WAS AN UNLICENSED CONTRACTOR DOING ON YOUR JOB? Forget who's right or wrong about the money. I didn't think you could sign a contract with a homeowner unless you are licensed also. In Minnesota I could refuse to pay you and it would be no problem for me. You don't have a contractors license and neither does your roofer. I would guess your both out of luck. No license no money and no legal rights.

 

Not the case in in Illinois. I am not required to have a license unless I am the one performing the work. This is the case in Indiana, and Kentucky as well. The homeowner has no problem paying me once lien is dismissed. I don't understand why anyone is suspicous of any of this. It is a standard subcontract. He just misrepresented himself as being licensed, and truthfully it wouldn't be an issue if he hadn't tried to rape me on his invoice. When I agree with someone on a price per square I expect that agreement to be honored.

 

I was never aware of his not having a license until after the dispute developed. I have a contract which he signed stating that he is responsible for all licensing, permits, insurance, etc.

He was getting paid per our agreement before he left the job he was NEVER going to get the amount he asked for. It is perfectly legal for me to advertise roofing services and hire subs to do the jobs. It is THEIR responsibility to get permits, insurance and to have proper licensing to perform work. I spent alot of money with an attorney to draw up my contracts and have made every attempt to be legal.

 

If you didn't have the money, you should have never hired him.

 

Part of the problem with this thread is we are from all over the country and we have different rules. Here if I did the same thing the judge (if it went to court) would say I should have requested proof of insurance. Your method of operation is fine by me, but if the sub gets the permit what happened on this job? He has no license, you have no license. Do you need permits there? The other thing is around here a 30 square roof tear off and reshingle takes 2 or 3 days with a crew. So what did this guy get done when he asked for payment. If you sub out a 30 square roof, materials and labor would be about $9000 for Timberline lets say. Most subs would do hand flips for that. Timberline rarely sells for more than $350 or $400 a square. So this must have been a pretty big roof job. But I am getting away from the issue here. But I sure am curious on how this turns out. Once I hired a sub and he said he had insurance, he didn't and when I called him on it he said "I thought you meant auto insurance":blink:

 

Once I hired a sub and he said he had insurance, he didn't and when I called him on it he said "I thought you meant auto insurance":blink:

:laughing:

 

Do you tell your custumers that when they contract with you that you then go out and contract with another contractor ? do you have any in house employees or equipment?

 

All of our customers know we hire subcontractors. We also provide them with insurance certs naming them as additionally insured. I am sure they are glad it isn't me doing the work since I am not exactly Bob Villa.

 

Are you having to get a bond with your license in Illinois? That is also tangable for the employees to get paid from.

 

Yes, we are required, for Roofing at least, to get a $ 10,000.00 bond. I think it is just a lisencing bond though. I will look at mine tomorrow and see what it actually says.

Ed

 

So with the settlement that should hopefully clear things up. Now what about warranty with an unlicensed sub?

 

The manufacturer will warranty the product. DECRA is great about warranty they will even send a rep out within 48 hours for warranty and trouble shooting if needed. I had the job completed by a licensed roofer and I am confident it won't leak. The licensed guy is local so if there is an issue he will be on top of it. We redecked this whole roof and then laid down an Elk product called Quantum 30 and I have to say this is the best stuff I have ever seen. I have used Rooftopguard II for a while and it is awesome stuff but it gets slick and has a tendency to delaminate. The Quantum 30 is fool proof it seems. So I can't imagine any leaks, but if they arise we will fix them. I like this customer and the worst thing is there are about 3 other people who want steel shingles that this guy knows.