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mason contractors
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Im not sure I understand your condescending attitude? Im talking about the chimney on the outside of the wall.
I only mentioned flashing for the exterior f.p. ....whatever, but I was focused on the first pic with the damper set way too far back for no good reason at all [interior yes?]...its not the best design and I know designers plan f.p. leaners a lot however there's a good way to do that....I've done them but I always keep the throat close as possible to the face. Deep breasts on slants isn't advised but when done they need to be rounded, never shelf-ed up to the angled housing. Turbulence and smoke lingering will result in eddys.

I am speaking out against what you are showing to a learning audience.

You mentioned on the redo board about having cut dampers in 20'' chimneys before, ''do to tight conditions''? and that some guys cut dampers for rumfords "some work some don't"
Me the condescending one?...you get your digs in.

You bet some work some don't.....as with all fireplaces if watched for hours closely. That's what motivated me and led me to a choke / better function combo....they go together!

Per you comment to Fundi,...I never said its hard, just do not make a throat chamber with too low a damper and either bury the lip with parge or cut it. And for a better function make your own damper reversed unless terribly leaned where you merely make one with a normal hinge to the back or use the vestal.

I really cant explain in depth at this point but no flat lipped shelfs in the throat chamber.
 

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While I would love to put fireplaces in the middle of the house for efficiency, I'm like JBM, when I get drawings I price it as it's drawn. Now if there aren;t drawings and it's all up to me then I'll let my feelings be known but we're more often hired to build, not to design...at least that's my experience
 

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Discussion Starter #27
I've never heard of putting flashing in a chimney like that. why would water be at the header? And if there was won't it be flashed to dump atop the firebox?

I like to think of what could go wrong but I'm not building something just in case Noah builds another arc., nor am I redesigning perfectly fine fireplaces because there are some issues somewhere with some guy that has a smoky fireplace. Can't move the damper in on a 24" deep boc with no slant to speak of. So that leaves only a couple options, which I am aware of and took care of.
 

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mason contractors
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I've never heard of putting flashing in a chimney like that. why would water be at the header? And if there was won't it be flashed to dump atop the firebox?

I like to think of what could go wrong but I'm not building something just in case Noah builds another arc., nor am I redesigning perfectly fine fireplaces because there are some issues somewhere with some guy that has a smoky fireplace. Can't move the damper in on a 24" deep boc with no slant to speak of. So that leaves only a couple options, which I am aware of and took care of.
no the flashing is at an angle or two piece crowned in the middle. It is placed out side and at either one low end or both if crowned there are weeps. Water via capilary can leak at the box ''otherwise" but not when this type of flashing is used.

Well then I'm in the ''same boat as Noah'' and ''you build arcs!'' ;)

''nor am I redesigning perfectly fine fireplaces because there are some issues somewhere with some guy that has a smoky fireplace''

What perfectly fine firebox? and who has the smokey box and issues?

''Can't move the damper in on a 24" deep boc with no slant to speak of''. You just made a perfect description of a half slant half straight back with "one major flaw" You are not rounding the throat, instead you made a 8'' flat shelf. You certainly took care of it. Why dont you bring it over to the Rumford thread and see what Jim grades it at.

I have already decided to use it in my patent app as a example of turbulence via non vortex flow in a throat chamber.

Here's a pic of me doing one of two back to back slanted boxes where both needed slanting. The one I'm doing is the 60'' slanted rumford. I used all brick to do the slanting chamber which is what the old chimneys did however I did have a small shelf.

Once more...all you needed to do was thicken that breast and round it then lean the smoke chamber 4''....in fact the chamber itself would have sufficed like I did in the pic with my 8'' deep damper...geesh you are thick.! the pic isnt overly descriptive but its what I've described!
If you want to see both boxes I can but I already did.
 

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mason contractors
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While I would love to put fireplaces in the middle of the house for efficiency, I'm like JBM, when I get drawings I price it as it's drawn. Now if there aren;t drawings and it's all up to me then I'll let my feelings be known but we're more often hired to build, not to design...at least that's my experience
Lets get straight..I do exteriors too...my last one was my son's which is a 36 small leaned slant rumford 28'' chimney depth with 12'' brick behind the smoke chamber for warmth. It's flashed at the header and half way up with weeps as its very windy on the beach. But I prefer interior fp's ''in a perfect world"

the 18'' deep 36'' rumford slant f p doesnt smoke, yet uses a cut vestal at 16'' above lintel; header at 7'; full 2 by4 framing with 7/8'' sheathing ;and the above mentioned 12'' chamber wall rear and 8'' sides at chimney. The chamber starts it narrowing at the damper's ends so as to avoid excessive cold air lingering.
 

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Chief outhouse engineer
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We have to educate the customer about why they want the fireplace inside the envelope. Really it is the builder, so he can have them laying it out from the get go.

And we can always sell the insulation package. Well if the footer hasn't been poured yet...

Come on Francis, what is with the pic of 5 brick and a guy raking joints. What the heck is that supposed to show. I don't follow the flashing comment at all.
 

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mason contractors
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We have to educate the customer about why they want the fireplace inside the envelope. Really it is the builder, so he can have them laying it out from the get go.

And we can always sell the insulation package. Well if the footer hasn't been poured yet...

Come on Francis, what is with the pic of 5 brick and a guy raking joints. What the heck is that supposed to show. I don't follow the flashing comment at all.
the pic isnt raking joints....its building a leaned smoke chamber..cant rake joints in them. That damper is one of mine situated at the extreme front despite needing to lean....i.e. no front shelf!

see pic

flashing a fireplace... across its opening outside at the header and below the above airspace is no different than doing window head flashing behind a veneer. Both have masonry over an opening...worse is the fp being a warm interior to attract moisure...dont tell me you've never seen the feeble trim and caulk job up along the sides of a tall chimney not to mention roofers come in and hack up the flashing above? or worse yet a chimney that pulls away? Hypothetical...hmm the old man never did anything for nothing! One hell of a firestop too, and a bug guard from a loose leaf flashing or j bead crevaces along sides from siders.etc.

Ive removed fps and chimneys where the sheathing is rotted via dampness and leakage RIGHT DOWN TO THE HEADER!
Gable end walls move with time sometimes:eek:

the 1st pic is the damper and rough face where I was working the other is a cut vestal and the arch fp is a reverse hinge I made..mine are lintel dampers I dont know if these will be good Im having trouble with them being overly enlarged ?
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Once more...all you needed to do was thicken that breast and round it then lean the smoke chamber 4''....in fact the chamber itself would have sufficed like I did in the pic with my 8'' deep damper...geesh you are thick.! the pic isnt overly descriptive but its what I've described!
If you want to see both boxes I can but I already did.
I dont need to do anything, the fireplace wont smoke, none of them ever have. I dont live in a state of paranoia, I live in the real world building upon hundreds of previous fireplaces that work perfectly fine. Werent you saying you dont need a smoke shelf, I dunno, maybe put one of those in and you wont have a smoky fireplace. Of coarse corbeling against the back of the firebox to shift it forward would eliminate the smoke shelf, I guess weve identified the problem.
 

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mason contractors
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Re;I dont need to do anything, the fireplace wont smoke, none of them ever have. I dont live in a state of paranoia, I live in the real world building upon hundreds of previous fireplaces that work perfectly fine. Werent you saying you dont need a smoke shelf, I dunno, maybe put one of those in and you wont have a smoky fireplace. Of coarse corbeling against the back of the firebox to shift it forward would eliminate the smoke shelf, I guess weve identified the problem.
__________________

No that was Karl, go read the winter thread. I am for them and never built a fireplace without one, in the back! The Rosin Papers are against them but stated that if 12'' or less they are ok and I think I posted that?
I have to be paranoid about smoke it's what Im avoiding while making the fireplace less drafting and as of late epa compliant etc.
I dont know about all your fireplaces just what you have shown in the first pic however I've been suspecting front shelfs in the redo and the farmhouse threads.
You are very well aware of streamilining chambers being a Buckley Grad so I dont understand why the slanted fireplace is exempt, to the point of using front shelfs despite all my advocating against them.
Read the Forgotten Art Book by Orton....

I'm not sure what the quote means ...you are speaking about two different shelfs?.....One in the front is bad and Ive seen it before in subdivisions to speed the build, in fact I have a close friend whom does them but only 2 L irons deep, starting at the face.:no:

Someone posted a slanted firebox that had a thick front rounded breast with no flat shelf before the damper,I think... I dont like combining the two but but they will work if done right.

Your jobs are looking good J
 

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Discussion Starter #35
This is really how I wanted the other chimney done, the way ive always had em done ,but was out voted on the first one.

Have another copper job on the one im on too, plus the next one I believe.

 

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Discussion Starter #36
I dont know about all your fireplaces just what you have shown in the first pic however I've been suspecting front shelfs in the redo and the farmhouse threads.
You are very well aware of streamilining chambers being a Buckley Grad so I dont understand why the slanted fireplace is exempt, to the point of using front shelfs despite all my advocating against them.
Read the Forgotten Art Book by Orton....
[/QUOTE]

None of the fireplaces I build have any shelfs in them if the top is sized correctly for the vestal dampers, IE: 12 1/2-14" or so. When a customer wants a 24" box with no slant then a shelf at the damper is sometimes the way it ends up. It will work fine, the only times it doesnt is if the cimney is too short, the smoke chamber is too flat, the flue is undersized, or some irregular wind up top. The other option is to build another wall behind the face with some sort of angle going on to tuck up underneath the damper, but yet again this creates 8"'s of angle iron to deal with.

As a matter of fact I used to do stone set ups for another mason who would follow me around when I was a youngster, would do them like a marble set up and after he was done there was 2 angle irons. One for the bricks and one for his veneer. Worked fine.

Just because the rumford has a rounded throat system doesnt mean crap to me. IF im doing a rumford with the thoat at angle iron height then yeah it should be made like that.

I do admit that I dont like doing it like that (with the 4" shelf), but it does work so at this point we are simply trying to zero in on perfectionism that costs me money and offers little in the way of performance really. Fireplaces either smoke or they dont. The face cracks or it doesnt. I over come both issues all the time so my job is done, eh?
 

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J there are two types or schools of thought when it comes to fireplace mechanics. One is the rumford upside down trumpet throatchamber whch is more dependent of mass flow while the other is atop a slanted rear wall which needs to transition and handle currents differently.

The straight back throat is made for what it looks like.....generally a constant smooth volume flow which in sports would be put as '' good defense is a good offense''......the proper slant is opposite!

The setting back of vestals always was a way of avoiding slanted rear walls only to need to corbel back the smoke chamber past the header especially in 2 by 6 const.

The thicker front breast should always be rounded as it does induce flow....however when doing wide open throats with good chimneys they [double L irons will work,but much like a straight back, keeping the fire to the back.
Of course this is regarding rectangular boxes like the BIA etc.

Where the **** hits the fan is when the throat is choked because at that point any and every flawed feature will cause leaks hence forcing the rumford's 4'' rule!

There is a rule that total mass flow of a f.p. opening has to be .08 to1 ft per second in all fireplaces ..and over restricting a throat to under the flue's area will result in eddys.

Yet it also says dampening a small fire will keep the chimney warmer and avoid temperamental-ness via wind and draft fluctuations.

With this being said they put great importance on the damper / throat height above the lintel, as well as the ''shape'' of the throat chamber and damper positioning front to back to keep the flow even and tame so to speak across the underside of the breast and up it's back side.

re; ''perfectionism that costs me money and offers little in the way of performance really''.

Jay YOU NEED TO GET IN THE TRUCK AND DRIVE HERE....You don't seem to get the 1:30 ratio .........it is sheer performance!...of course I need a non disclosure signed...:thumbup:
If I pull this patent-s off [my inventor buddy thinks its a go] it'll cost money not to do the chamber right...however my son will go well merely advertising the difference with it's advantage.

Read this http://www.whysanity.net/richardstone/OPERATION.pdf
 

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J there are two types or schools of thought when it comes to fireplace mechanics. One is the rumford upside down trumpet throatchamber whch is more dependent of mass flow while the other is atop a slanted rear wall which needs to transition and handle currents differently.

The straight back throat is made for what it looks like.....generally a constant smooth volume flow which in sports would be put as '' good defense is a good offense''......the proper slant is opposite!

The setting back of vestals always was a way of avoiding slanted rear walls only to need to corbel back the smoke chamber past the header especially in 2 by 6 const.

The thicker front breast should always be rounded as it does induce flow....however when doing wide open throats with good chimneys they [double L irons will work,but much like a straight back, keeping the fire to the back.
Of course this is regarding rectangular boxes like the BIA etc.

Where the **** hits the fan is when the throat is choked because at that point any and every flawed feature will cause leaks hence forcing the rumford's 4'' rule!

There is a rule that total mass flow of a f.p. opening has to be .08 to1 ft per second in all fireplaces ..and over restricting a throat to under the flue's area will result in eddys.

Yet it also says dampening a small fire will keep the chimney warmer and avoid temperamental-ness via wind and draft fluctuations.

With this being said they put great importance on the damper / throat height above the lintel, as well as the ''shape'' of the throat chamber and damper positioning front to back to keep the flow even and tame so to speak across the underside of the breast and up it's back side.

re; ''perfectionism that costs me money and offers little in the way of performance really''.

Jay YOU NEED TO GET IN THE TRUCK AND DRIVE HERE....You don't seem to get the 1:30 ratio .........it is sheer performance!...of course I need a non disclosure signed...:thumbup:
If I pull this patent-s off [my inventor buddy thinks its a go] it'll cost money not to do the chamber right...however my son will go well merely advertising the difference with it's advantage.

Read this http://www.whysanity.net/richardstone/OPERATION.pdf

Seems you know your **** about this stuff but when i read it it looked like this :blink::laughing:

J существует два типа или школы мысли, когда дело доходит до Камин механики. Одним из них является Рамфорд с ног на голову труба throatchamber whch в большей степени зависит от массового расхода в то время как другой вершине наклонной задней стенкой, которая должна перейти и обрабатывать токи по-разному.

Прямая спина горло сделано для того, что это выглядит как ..... в общем постоянная гладкий поток объем, который в спорте будут поставлены как '' хорошей защитой является нападение '' ...... правильное наклонная напротив !

Установка задней весталок всегда был способ избежать раскосые задние стены только нужно поясок назад дымовой камеры мимо заголовка особенно в 2 по 6 Уст.

Толще передней груди всегда должны быть закруглены, как это делает вызвать поток .... Однако, делая широкие открытые горло с хорошими труб они [двойной L утюг будет работать, но так же, как прямой спиной, держа огонь в спину.
Конечно, это касается прямоугольных, как BIA и т.д.

Где **** парад вентилятор, когда горло душили, потому что в этот момент все и каждый недостатки особенность вызывают утечки в силу чего 4 '' правило Румфорда в!

Существует правило, что общая масса потока в F.P. отверстие должно быть 0,08 ТО1 футов в секунду во всех каминов ..и за ограничения на горло под площади борова приведет к eddys.

Тем не менее, это также говорит увлажнения небольшой огонь будет держать дымоход теплее и избежать темпераментный-Несс с помощью ветра и сквозняка колебаний.

При этом, как сказал, что они придают большое значение на высоте заслонка / горла над перемычкой, а также '' формы '' в горле камеры и заслонка позиционирования в направлении спереди назад, чтобы сохранить поток даже и приручить, так сказать по нижней груди и до его задняя сторона.

повторно; '' Перфекционизм, что стоит мне деньги, и предлагает немного в пути исполнения действительно ''.

Джей ВАМ НУЖНО ПОЛУЧИТЬ В грузовике и попутные ЗДЕСЬ ...., кажется, Вы не получите соотношение 1:30 ......... это само исполнение! ... Я, конечно, нужно, не являющегося раскрытие подписали ...
Если я нажму на патент с выкл [мой изобретатель приятель думает его GO] это будет стоить денег не делать камеру правильно ... Однако мой сын пойдет хорошо просто реклама разницу с его преимуществом.
 

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mason contractors
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Seems you know your **** about this stuff but when i read it it looked like this :blink::laughing:

J существует два типа или школы мысли, когда дело доходит до Камин механики. Одним из них является Рамфорд с ног на голову труба throatchamber whch в большей степени зависит от массового расхода в то время как другой вершине наклонной задней стенкой, которая должна перейти и обрабатывать токи по-разному.

Прямая спина горло сделано для того, что это выглядит как ..... в общем постоянная гладкий поток объем, который в спорте будут поставлены как '' хорошей защитой является нападение '' ...... правильное наклонная напротив !

Установка задней весталок всегда был способ избежать раскосые задние стены только нужно поясок назад дымовой камеры мимо заголовка особенно в 2 по 6 Уст.

Толще передней груди всегда должны быть закруглены, как это делает вызвать поток .... Однако, делая широкие открытые горло с хорошими труб они [двойной L утюг будет работать, но так же, как прямой спиной, держа огонь в спину.
Конечно, это касается прямоугольных, как BIA и т.д.

Где **** парад вентилятор, когда горло душили, потому что в этот момент все и каждый недостатки особенность вызывают утечки в силу чего 4 '' правило Румфорда в!

Существует правило, что общая масса потока в F.P. отверстие должно быть 0,08 ТО1 футов в секунду во всех каминов ..и за ограничения на горло под площади борова приведет к eddys.

Тем не менее, это также говорит увлажнения небольшой огонь будет держать дымоход теплее и избежать темпераментный-Несс с помощью ветра и сквозняка колебаний.

При этом, как сказал, что они придают большое значение на высоте заслонка / горла над перемычкой, а также '' формы '' в горле камеры и заслонка позиционирования в направлении спереди назад, чтобы сохранить поток даже и приручить, так сказать по нижней груди и до его задняя сторона.

повторно; '' Перфекционизм, что стоит мне деньги, и предлагает немного в пути исполнения действительно ''.

Джей ВАМ НУЖНО ПОЛУЧИТЬ В грузовике и попутные ЗДЕСЬ ...., кажется, Вы не получите соотношение 1:30 ......... это само исполнение! ... Я, конечно, нужно, не являющегося раскрытие подписали ...
Если я нажму на патент с выкл [мой изобретатель приятель думает его GO] это будет стоить денег не делать камеру правильно ... Однако мой сын пойдет хорошо просто реклама разницу с его преимуществом.
lol forget the forulars....I dont know them either....just the main ones.
some of which I now doubt like the throat being too small and causing leaks.......I have never ever seen that in fact it's the big throats that cause leaks via all that flow against the rear wall which leads to smoke dilution and turbulence in the slanted firebox.
 
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