Best practices for removal of moldy drywall ???

34961 Views 32 Replies 10 Participants Last post by Insuranceclaims, May 3, 2010

akm

Discussion Starter · Dec 26, 2009

Advice, checklist, or good (or know other sources for) technical documents on best practices for diagnose, remove, replace, repair, clean, etc, (assuming cause has been cured) molded drywall ceilings and walls ?

1 - 20 of 33 Posts

FremontREO

· #2 · Dec 27, 2009

Removal is easy!
Rip tear cut and throw away...oops forgot to say: wear your respirators, be OSHA compliant, Have your "fit tests", have your physicals up to date, have your commercial pollution liability policy paid up, run your negative air machines, build containment zones and much more. Best to hire out to a knowledgable contractor who knows how to complete a job such as this. Reason: when you start a mold remediation (removal of moldy drywall is considered remediation) than you are responsible for any mold that may be caused from cross contamination and the liability risks can be high. :whistling
Ask to learn from the company doing the remediation and learn the trade and take the training courses offered throughout the country. Complete work to IICRC S520 standards. The trade can be profitable but just do it right. Good luck!:thumbsup:

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akm

Discussion Starter · #3 · Dec 27, 2009

FremontREO said:
Ask to learn from the company doing the remediation and learn the trade and take the training courses offered throughout the country. Complete work to IICRC S520 standards. The trade can be profitable but just do it right.

Would like to learn about the process, but trying to keep it simple for fix small area in bathroom ceiling (next to plumbing wall) below neighboring condo apartment tub leak.
1. If correctly reading the IICRC order form, one copy of IICRC SS520 standards (sight-unseen) cost $130 ! Any way to read it online ?
2. Any online drywall mold remediation courses or manual ?
3. Other ways for contractor to get 'training' for work on these small projects ?
Couldnt find any WA state or Federal regulations requiring construction contractor 'certification' for mold remediation (as, for example, with work around lead paint per 40 CFR 745.80)... missed something ?
Understand the need to cover the a$$, but certified or not, unless some protection is provided by federal or state regulations, dont see how anything will totally protect any of us from a lawsuit.
But, that said, would still like to find the simplest way to learn the right way to do it.

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FremontREO

· #4 · Dec 27, 2009

akm said:
Would like to learn about the process, but trying to keep it simple for fix small area in bathroom ceiling (next to plumbing wall) below neighboring condo apartment tub leak.
1. If correctly reading the IICRC order form, one copy of IICRC SS520 standards (sight-unseen) cost $130 ! Any way to read it online ?
2. Any online drywall mold remediation courses or manual ?
3. Other ways for contractor to get 'training' for work on these small projects ?
Couldnt find any WA state or Federal regulations requiring construction contractor 'certification' for mold remediation (as, for example, with work around lead paint per 40 CFR 745.80)... missed something ?
Understand the need to cover the a$$, but certified or not, unless some protection is provided by federal or state regulations, dont see how anything will totally protect any of us from a lawsuit.
But, that said, would still like to find the simplest way to learn the right way to do it.

You are 100% correct in the State or Federal Regulations. There are several States that now require certification and rightly so. Hurricane Katrina changed how States are now looking at possible regulation for mold. As I have always been told (hope to never find out) that the courts look to see if the remediator adhered to the S520 standards. This is the industry standards that we try to follow. I don't know of any "free sites" to review or read. Maybe if you have a friend that is a remediation contractor or an insurance adjuster he/she might lend you a "book" for a readover. They are abt 1.5" thick and reads like the Senate Health Care Bill :clap: There are several on-line training courses but personally we don't put much stock in these courses. Kinda like trying to be an electrician by reading an NEC book. You might see if there are any mold inspectors in your area that you might hire for a few $$$'s to consult while the job is in progress just to cover your tail?

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FremontREO

· #5 · Dec 27, 2009

I just remembered you said the mold was in the ceiling below an upper unit condo? I'm sure you have thought of this but just in case: Many condo associations will require you to bring to the attention of the association that there is a possible mold exposure. Which then you most definitely want to have a mold inspector to take samples and send to microbiological labs for testing to see what types of mold is present. You don't want to "share" any blame for a possible mold problem that could be in shared ceilings, walls etc. Seen that one happen before. Also, since the cause of mold is attributable to the "above" leaking tub from neighbor than the insurance policy of the "above" neighbor would kick in and pay which could make your job a lot more profitable. :thumbup: Looking better all the time!:clap:

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Chris G

· #6 · Dec 27, 2009

You will need to evacuate all tenants in building and apply for a b345, (here in Canada) before you begin. Also, a perimeter exposure area of 3 city blocks must be maintained and monitored 24/7 for 1 week prior and 2 weeks post removal.

FremontREO

· #7 · Dec 27, 2009

Chris G said:
You will need to evacuate all tenants in building and apply for a b345, (here in Canada) before you begin. Also, a perimeter exposure area of 3 city blocks must be maintained and monitored 24/7 for 1 week prior and 2 weeks post removal.

R U serious? I know you Canucks are very strict on mold mitigation but......holy crap!

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Chris G

· #8 · Dec 27, 2009

Ya kidding, I've had few drinks sorry....:laughing:

FremontREO

· #9 · Dec 27, 2009

Chris G said:
Ya kidding, I've had few drinks sorry....:laughing:

LOL :drink:

Frankawitz

· #10 · Dec 27, 2009 (Edited)

MOLD CASH COW ALL BS

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3

Insuranceclaims

· #11 · Dec 27, 2009

Good morning, akm:

Well, on one hand, it is good to see that you are asking questions and show a desire to learn, but, to save yourself a lot of agrivation and risks, let me say that there is no substitute for investing time in education and following industry guidelines.

This is too broad a subject to write everything, so I will highlight some information to be helpful, but you are welcome to call me today, Sunday, or 24/7.

I am sharing 16 years of "hands-on" experience as an insurance restoration contractor and independent property adjuster. To understand how to deal with mold, you need to understand how to deal with water damage losses and structural drying.

I see you are in Seattle. This information will make things a lot easier for you, if you so choose:

1) The IICRC (Institute for Inspection, Cleaning and Restoration Certification) at www.iicrc.org is a great place for you to start. This is one of the two largest, if not the largest, organization in the world that offers 23 courses on restoration involving water, fire, mold and many other courses that you may encounter involving insurance property damage claims, or you may want to take these courses to broaden your services available.

While I am sure that some of these classes are offered in Seattle, you are very lucky that you are close to Burlington, where Dri-Eaz is located. Dri-Eaz is one of the largest manufacturers of drying equipment and has a "hands-on" on site facility to provide you a solid education and experience. You get to work in a flooded house and learn first hand how to dry a structure.

Take a few hours to read their site and call ask speak to their educational department.

2) As FReemont REO stated, and, if you plan on working with mold on a regular basis, you need to have pollution liability insurance. General liability insurance will not protect you in the event of a law suit.

3) Back to your original situation that I have gathered from others posting (you are dealing with a mold issue due to a water loss in the condo above). Here are some key steps if you have not started work yet:

---Do you have a signed work authorization to begin work?
---Did the owners call their carrier and file a claim?
---How much water/mold damage is there?
---Were the owners out of town, when the loss occurred?
---Has the owner notified the Association of water/mold damage in the wall/ceiling cavities?
---If the source of loss is from the condo bath above, has the leak been fixed?
---How long did the water damage exist before being detected?
---If this is an insurance claim, have you met with the adjuster?
---If the insured is living in the condo, you need to find out how sensitive they are to mold spores.

After these questions are determined, it must be determined whether pre-mold testing is required. This can depend on many variables: How long has the water/mold damage been present? Has the mold been disturbed prior to your arrival? If insurance related, will the carrier pay for testing prior to work starting.........this is a protection for you and the insured. Depending on the amount of mold or type, and, for liability issues, you want to know what the mold count is and type before starting. A post-mold test will definitely be needed, again, depending on many variables.

You must coordintate with the Association and receive written approval before removing any drywall, which belongs to the Association. In addition, the Association is responsible for the cost of drywall removal/repair and any cleaning/drying of the wall cavities. You should have a separate contract for them before any work begins.

Again, these are just a few key points. Understanding the principles of water damage and structural drying is important, when remediating mold. Most "regular contractors" use the mentality of Remove-Replace and should be thinking Restore-Replace. Air quality test, determining each parties liability, insurance coverage, containment, dehumidification, removal, disposal, documentation and payment are all key considerations.

Please call (210-823-3864) Mark if you have any questions. I am currently in SW Florida.

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JustaFramer

· #12 · Dec 27, 2009

Washington state doesn't require you to be certified. At least in that last few years anyway. If you want I know a guy that was trained for this type of work if you want.

FremontREO

· #13 · Dec 27, 2009

Insuranceclaims said:
Good morning, akm:

Well, on one hand, it is good to see that you are asking questions and show a desire to learn, but, to save yourself a lot of agrivation and risks, let me say that there is no substitute for investing time in education and following industry guidelines.

This is too broad a subject to write everything, so I will highlight some information to be helpful, but you are welcome to call me today, Sunday, or 24/7.

I am sharing 16 years of "hands-on" experience as an insurance restoration contractor and independent property adjuster. To understand how to deal with mold, you need to understand how to deal with water damage losses and structural drying.

I see you are in Seattle. This information will make things a lot easier for you, if you so choose:

1) The IICRC (Institute for Inspection, Cleaning and Restoration Certification) at www.iicrc.org is a great place for you to start. This is one of the two largest, if not the largest, organization in the world that offers 23 courses on restoration involving water, fire, mold and many other courses that you may encounter involving insurance property damage claims, or you may want to take these courses to broaden your services available.

While I am sure that some of these classes are offered in Seattle, you are very lucky that you are close to Burlington, where Dri-Eaz is located. Dri-Eaz is one of the largest manufacturers of drying equipment and has a "hands-on" on site facility to provide you a solid education and experience. You get to work in a flooded house and learn first hand how to dry a structure.

Take a few hours to read their site and call ask speak to their educational department.

2) As FReemont REO stated, and, if you plan on working with mold on a regular basis, you need to have pollution liability insurance. General liability insurance will not protect you in the event of a law suit.

3) Back to your original situation that I have gathered from others posting (you are dealing with a mold issue due to a water loss in the condo above). Here are some key steps if you have not started work yet:

---Do you have a signed work authorization to begin work?
---Did the owners call their carrier and file a claim?
---How much water/mold damage is there?
---Were the owners out of town, when the loss occurred?
---Has the owner notified the Association of water/mold damage in the wall/ceiling cavities?
---If the source of loss is from the condo bath above, has the leak been fixed?
---How long did the water damage exist before being detected?
---If this is an insurance claim, have you met with the adjuster?
---If the insured is living in the condo, you need to find out how sensitive they are to mold spores.

After these questions are determined, it must be determined whether pre-mold testing is required. This can depend on many variables: How long has the water/mold damage been present? Has the mold been disturbed prior to your arrival? If insurance related, will the carrier pay for testing prior to work starting.........this is a protection for you and the insured. Depending on the amount of mold or type, and, for liability issues, you want to know what the mold count is and type before starting. A post-mold test will definitely be needed, again, depending on many variables.

You must coordintate with the Association and receive written approval before removing any drywall, which belongs to the Association. In addition, the Association is responsible for the cost of drywall removal/repair and any cleaning/drying of the wall cavities. You should have a separate contract for them before any work begins.

Again, these are just a few key points. Understanding the principles of water damage and structural drying is important, when remediating mold. Most "regular contractors" use the mentality of Remove-Replace and should be thinking Restore-Replace. Air quality test, determining each parties liability, insurance coverage, containment, dehumidification, removal, disposal, documentation and payment are all key considerations.

Please call (210-823-3864) Mark if you have any questions. I am currently in SW Florida.

Great response. Is this Mark of Dryout?

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akm

Discussion Starter · #14 · Dec 27, 2009

Insuranceclaims said:
Well, on one hand, it is good to see that you are asking questions and show a desire to learn, but, to save yourself a lot of agrivation and risks, let me say that there is no substitute for investing time in education and following industry guidelines.

Thank you for the comprehensive/informative reply (and thanks Frnkawitz for the photos) !
We are definitely concerned about doing the job right.
Being of midwest small town origin, 1st inclination is to feel we are 'making a mountain out of a mole hill' in terms of this particular job which appears to very limited in scope, ie the water damage appears to be limited to 3 or 4 sf max of drywall ceiling and upper wall combined.
But, after being in the construction business for 40yrs, it is understood that, especially when dealing with condos, common sense can be expected to 'go out the window' in many ways, and in a big city full of paranoid home/condo owners, and nit-picky lawyers and insurance companies, we should probably recommend that an 'expert' be hired to assess the damage and recommend remediation steps, and then as a general contractor we could put the place back together after ?
If that be the process, how would we find such an 'expert', and how should we evaluate them beyond the normal subcontractor qualification measures ?

JustaFramer said:
Washington state doesn't require you to be certified. At least in that last few years anyway. If you want I know a guy that was trained for this type of work if you want.

Thanks, we may be in touch !

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Frankawitz

· #15 · Dec 27, 2009 (Edited)

I found this and would like the Experts how this would work. since everyone is worried of being sued.
While mold may be considered the next asbestos for financial reasons,it can not be considered the same environmental hazard. There are many factors involved in the differentiation of mold and asbestos.

Asbestos
1.A rock, never growing or dying
2.Placed indoors by humans
3.Exact abatement clearance standards
4.Disposal in specified landfills
5.Very small particle
6.Causes defined cancers and lung disease
Mold
1.A living, breathing organism
2.Allergic reaction predominates
3.Relatively large spores
4.Most degradation in a landfill is by mold
5.No standards
6.Occurs naturally indoors and out

Heres something else to think about.

Remember, mold is natural part of our environment. Salmville Amish Blue Cheese Crumbles contains 33,000,000 spores per gram.
T. Marzetti's Chunky Blue Cheese Dressing contains 230,000 spores/g or 138,000,000 spores per bottle, If this bottle of dressing spilled onto the wall, Most of the "Mold Experts" would suit up in full face respirators and full Tyvek suits to remove the entire wall under containment.:w00t::shutup:

Not trying to be a smart azz, but I have been doing water damage repairs for comin on 25 years now. Most of the Homeowner Insurance policies in my area have a cap on mold remediation of $5,000.00. I hear what your saying about covering yourself. we found Mold Control to work the best.

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FremontREO

· #16 · Dec 28, 2009

Frankawitz said:
I found this and would like the Experts how this would work. since everyone is worried of being sued.
While mold may be considered the next asbestos for financial reasons,it can not be considered the same environmental hazard. There are many factors involved in the differentiation of mold and asbestos.

Asbestos
1.A rock, never growing or dying
2.Placed indoors by humans
3.Exact abatement clearance standards
4.Disposal in specified landfills
5.Very small particle
6.Causes defined cancers and lung disease
Mold
1.A living, breathing organism
2.Allergic reaction predominates
3.Relatively large spores
4.Most degradation in a landfill is by mold
5.No standards
6.Occurs naturally indoors and out

Heres something else to think about.

Remember, mold is natural part of our environment. Salmville Amish Blue Cheese Crumbles contains 33,000,000 spores per gram.
T. Marzetti's Chunky Blue Cheese Dressing contains 230,000 spores/g or 138,000,000 spores per bottle, If this bottle of dressing spilled onto the wall, Most of the "Mold Experts" would suit up in full face respirators and full Tyvek suits to remove the entire wall under containment.:w00t::shutup:

Not trying to be a smart azz, but I have been doing water damage repairs for comin on 25 years now. Most of the Homeowner Insurance policies in my area have a cap on mold remediation of $5,000.00. I hear what your saying about covering yourself. we found Mold Control to work the best.

LOL now thats funny:clap:
I'd be licking those walls..! anyway there is a big difference in types of mold as anyone can look up on the internet but mycotoxins is what makes the big difference in your analogy.
Insurance: you are correct that most all insurance policies limit the amount of coverage a policy will pay for mold to the "homeowner" on his/her policy but there is a big difference here: The cause of mold from the neighbors leaking tub would be a "liability claim" from the neighbors policy and not a "limited amount" property damage claim on the homeowners policy.
Also, I agree that this world is insane on lawsuits and it is nuts that before a contractor does his "estimate" he/she has got to think about all the what ifs. Mold control is the way to go!
We call mold/lead and asbestos as part of the LRA (lawyers retirement act) :laughing:

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akm

Discussion Starter · #17 · Dec 28, 2009

Frankawitz said:
"Mold Control"

Meaning ?

Paulie

· #18 · Dec 28, 2009

You can buy chemicals from supply houses that is just sprayed on and guaranteed to kill 99 % of mold and spores. I'll be damned if I can remember the name right now. It' on the tip of my tongue LOL.:shutup:

Oh yeah Shockwave. Just mix it in water (I think 4:1) and spray it on. :thumbsup:

Frankawitz

· #19 · Dec 28, 2009

The product is called Mold Control they make a fogger that you can use to fog a room it will cover the Mold spores and it makes the Mold dry out which in turn kills the spores. They sell it at Home Depot in the paint dept.

Insuranceclaims

· #20 · Dec 28, 2009

Freemont REO: Thank you.

AKM: While everyone has provided good feedback, it sounds like this loss may be less than 30 SF. The purpose of my long narrative (yikes! Could have been longer) was to give you a crash course on the many variables involved with mold remediation and water damage losses.

Being in Seattle, there are all kinds of opportunities to take classes on water damage losses, which can lead to mold.

Dealing with insurance property damage claims requires education, proper training, equipment/supplies, and knowledge of how the claims process works. You want to make sure you are going to get paid.

Following proper procedures on mold remediation is always a must. Improper remediation and air quality can lead to unknown problems after the fact. Age, health conditions and the size of the loss are all key issues to consider. I always inform the insured that they have the option of having a pre-mold test performed before starting any work to protect myself and the insured.

If the air is contaminated and has spread throughout the home before work starts, then, the question you should be prepared to answer if legal issues develop is:

(Attorney): How do we know that your work is not the reason for the cross contamination of rooms that were not water damaged or poor air quality, which is effecting the insured, after the fact?

(Attorney): Did you test the air quality before starting work?

If not, you cannot prove that the cross contamination or poor air quality was pre-existing prior to your work.

While this may sound like overkill, you need to protect yourself and the insured.

Can you post any photos of the room from the doorway and then a couple of close ups?

Few other thoughts without photos or info:

---Did water run down the wall and how much...how long?
---How long since the loss was recognized and leak above repaired?

Along the baseboard, do you see separation of the caulking? This indicates that excessive moisture content was present or trapped in the wall cavity. Vapor pressure looks for the path of least resistance to escape into the atmosphere. Caulking is the least resistance.

---Is the framing wood? This could be an issue at floor level.

---Are the bathroom floors vinyl? Depending on the amount of water, vapor pressure can deteriate the adhesive and the back of the vinyl will emit a purple dye.

Let me know if I can help?

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