Got a call from a friend last night wanting either hardwood or tile put in his kitchen. Problem is he currently has carpet with old 3/4 hardwood underneath. I told him tile was a no go unless I would pull up the old hardwood and put new osb down. Would a floating hardwood or laminate floor be a good option in this situation? The other problem is that I'm sure its not flat.
What do you guys do when you run into the old 3/4 flooring?
Depending on condition, I'll refinish the existing - rust stains from nails / staples can be a problem, as can discoloration from water. Usually I'll do a quick bleach with oxalic acid, and see what it look like (if there is no finish. If there's finish I'll make a decison based on the way it looks without doing anything). Other options are shimming the floor from underneath to get it flat, then go over with floating floor, pulling the floor from above, leveling the framing, then put down whatever you need for what goes on top. I've done all of these - cutting out the floor next to a wall could require some support be put in the floor framing under the wall - you have to look under the walls parallel to the joists to see how they're supported, they may just be sitting on the boards with no joist directly under.
If you're lucky enough and he really wants a floating floor, you can use self leveling to get rid of any dips and be good to go. A little pricey, but much faster than other options.
Floor heights can be a problem, but you already know that.
If you're lucky enough and he really wants a floating floor, you can use self leveling to get rid of any dips and be good to go. A little pricey, but much faster than other options.
I can't argue with you there. There aren't many guys in my area who do that. I can't say its anything I have ever thought of doing. I'll keep that in mind but at this point I think I would be in over my head. I'd be more comfortable using leveler and floating a floor.
I think a flat floor is overrated and even undesirable. Do you think that guy in Bedford Falls had flat floors in that house with the faulty finial on the staircase? Hell no. It builds character in the occupants to live in a house with uneven floors and can lead to a good understanding of construction by youngsters:
Youngster: Dad, why is the floor so uneven?
Dad: Because the floor joists are saggy or they weren't crowned.
Youngster: What is a floor joist?
I don't use OSB for anything unless I have to.
It may be acceptable, but I don't trust it, or like it.
I would try sanding, staining and finishing the hardwood and call it a character floor, or tear it out and start new.
Floating floor is not a good choice in a kitchen, in MY opinion
When stapling down say a maple or oak hardwood and your adding, say a layer of 1/2" ply to beef up an old subfloor does anyone use osb instead of b/c ply ? Is it as good for holding fasteners? Sure is cheaper and flatter.. I just don't trust it..
No, plywood everywhere. Just the way its done here.
Many of the condos that have do have osb have swollen floors under the fridge, under the dishwasher just inside the doors. From water, or sqeaky floors throughout if hardwood is over it. Most just have carpeting.
What I really care about, is what the flooring manufacturers recommend their flooring be laid over. 5/8" OSB is specified by the manufactures of flooring we lay. Most of the builders around here use advantech because it stands up to being rained/snowed on. I never have to sand joints or repair delamination
After seeing what happened with the fire retardant plywood fiasco I will stay away from osb subfloors.
Mfgs said that plywood was fine and since then it all had to be replaced. Almost everyone who made it or used it is now bankrupt.
I can save almost any wood floor. I'd be inclined to sand what you have there, unless budget was no option. I've weighed in on the osb before. It may be suitable,I don't like it. By osb i mean the cheap crap.
This is not a close friend. More of an aquantence. We did stuff together when we were younger but don't really bump into each other much anymore. I don't have any problem charging him full price.
I would like to get the job as it would be a solid week or two worth of work.
The sales challenges on this job are:
A) convincing him that it would be money well spent to pay me to install it vs him doing it himself. They want tile but he mentioned that if hardwood is the only option he may try and do it himself. Maybe that means I should try to sell tile??? (He is a civil engineer so you know how that goes. They can do anything.)
B) Selling myself enough that they don't go price shopping. They are cheap and patronage to me will only go as far as the $ sign. I would be their first choice. But in this case they won't pay a bunch more for me vs a local flooring installer.
Practice makes perfect. School of sales here I come. :clap:
I saw the flag too. In my head it said, "You better charge enough because this could be a real PIA/time consumer."
It will be interesting. If nothing else I'm looking forward to practicing the sales routine.
The one reason I'd like to do the job is his family connections. If I get my foot in the door here there will be more work down the road. His parents are building a house this summer that I'd like to trim out.
Give me a general run down on your process on an old floor like that. I'm completely in the dark in regards to the process of stripping the old finish off etc. I'll try and do some homework on my end. If it looks feasible I'll throw the option out there. I've got a lot of learning to do in the mean time. I've done a lot of things but that isn't one of them.
There are several personality types in this world----
I'm just guessing on his---he seems like a person that is a bit bull headed and doesn't know much about building--but thinks he does.
He's also positioning you --manipulating--setting you up--for a cheap price---instead of waiting for your professional opinion--he has told you how he wants the work done--(leave the old tired floor and tile over it--float a floor over it)
You might win this guy over---but they are tough---they know what they 'want' but have little idea what they 'need'
I suggest you do a very detailed scope of work---starting with protecting the area---demo--trash removal---and on to the end--replace base and shoe-------final clean up---
This will give you the list of tasks--materials and supplies--needed anyway for your pricing---
Often with the 'skeptical doubter' types--or the 'researcher'types I will present the proposal with pricing for all of the phases----
Typically I just have a detailed scope---and a bottom line price--but this type likes to have all of the details---this way when he says that the price is kind of high---you can say--this is really a lot of work---
"please,look at each line. Do you think any of these are to high? See? I only charged you $x.xx to remove and reinstall the dishwasher---do you think I charged to much for that?
How about raising the threshold on the back door? I'm sure not making much on that one---"
As you sell you will recognize several different personality types and learn which ones you can win over and which you are best to walk away from.----you are quality oriented--so your services will not appeal to some----
I was reading a book on sales last night and the author said that 30-40% of people are solely price oriented. So basically don't think you can win them all.
This guy is a nice enough guy. Ignorant in what it would really take to do the job as far as time and cost, and over confident in regards to his own abilities. That's just part of it. I had to break a guys heart last Saturday, I drew up a really rough drawing of a "barn house", I think it came out to 3,000 plus sq ft of living space. I asked him what he thought it would cost. He said, "somewhere around $80k". I said triple it and you're in the ball park. O well, thus the need to educate the customer on costs.
I will do a detailed scope of work and see what happens. I'm gone next week so it will be a week after next until I get to go see the job. I will post some pics and dimensions when I get them.
Can't thank everyone enough for all the help getting started. May what has come my way go back your way.
If you think someone is going to be very price conscious then don't over think it. Tell them two options, the cheapest way you're willing to get it done and the way you would like to do it. I usually present my preferred way first but it doesn't need to be a complicated presentation. After you describe the two methods, without pricing, ask them which they would prefer. Either way, you only have to prepare one price.
Spence---you have a few varied skills now--the more you add to your basket--the easier it is to survive the changing markets and economic down turns---
My first love is wood----I even carved signs long ago---
but I'm a natural with plumbing and electrical---and have worked in both of those trades---
Those are just a couple of the many things I can use to make a living--and the things that I tried and failed at? Those experiences gave me insight into bidding and hiring subs----
I started my first business in 1973--next one in 1976--selling is not the easiest of skills---
my style is simple---look past what they say they want and figure out what they really want--
Package it up so they don't have to go elsewhere for any part of the job----
Explain things clearly and simply so there is no mystery or confusion--
By then--the sale is easy---if the price is high--perhaps they will wait--but if what you offer is exactly what they want---anyone else is a second choice.
Personally I'd give him a quick run down of the problems with that floor done different ways (leveling, stiffness needed for tiles, height changes, etc). You need an approach that isn't going to have a lot of costly problems to solve, and that's probably refinishing.
You're kinda in a tough spot. You hope you might get some extra work after this if you give him a good deal. I never do a 'deal' on the first small job for a customer. This IS a 'small job' to the HO. It's just a kitchen, right? How long could it possibly take? If you're happy with my work I'll give you a break on the next job(s). The more work you give me, whether your job or referals, then you will get a 'deal' on the next one.
As far as the actual job is concerned - IMO trying your hand at refinishing a floor for the first time, in a kitchen, is a bad idea. Too much hand work (edging and scraping) that you're unfamiliar with doing.
If he's a cheap sob, a laminate is probably his/yours best option. I don't personally like the stuff, but it solves many problems. Height, dust, time, cost, etc.
I wouldn't recommend tiling over the old hardwood. Even using a cement backer it's going to crack. HW moves, it's a fact of life, and that cementitous layer over it isn't going to move in the same direction. Plus you have the height issues of the dishwasher and possibly the stove and fridge to consider.
JM2C
Oh...I'm also in the no OSB camp. I guess I'm just a stubborn old fart, but I'll always pay extra for the ply, unless cust doesn't want to pay, then we have warranty issues to discuss (MY warranty, not the mfr's. Sure Advantech has a 50yr warranty, but who's paying my labor?).
Just my opinions, so take it for what it's worth - It was up to $.03 yesterday :laughing:
They definitely don't want to spend the money to take up the old hardwood and do tile. I gave them the floating floor option. I think that is what they will do for the kitchen/dining area.
Only major height issue I saw is at the patio door. Not sure what I'll do there.
They also have a laundry/mudroom area that they go through from the garage to get to the kitchen/rest of the the house. They already bought tile for it. Said he got a good deal, about 50 cents/sq ft. :no: :blink: I'm guessing its pretty cheap stuff. I told them I can't do a tile job over old hardwood because of the wood movement. He said they still might want to do it anyway being that they already bought it. I suggested sheet vinyl in that room/bathroom.
They are going to talk it over and I'm going to get them a price based on what they decide.
Am I on track in saying NO to doing a tile job with 3/4 hardwood as the subfloor?
I'll attach some pics from my phone in the next post...
I was discussing the option of refinishing it with Pinwheel through PM. I didn't give him the option because I wasn't sure if it was something I even wanted to take a stab at. The kitchen wouldn't be so bad but the mudroom/bathroom is all cutup and has linoleum over it currently. Didn't know how that would come up...
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