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Carpe Diem
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Angus, I have seen some guys put a waterproof membrane over the durock in a custom shower.Is that an over kill in your opinion?I usualy install roofing papper over the studs-durock- then-tape and mud the seams and install the tile.Been doing it that way forever never had a problem.Thanx
As usual, I agree with Jaz's comments.

As for being overkill? Perhaps. I personally don't do it but quite a few others will. To me, as long as the surface is being waterproofed, it's a lot less important what's under it. If you're comfortable with using Durock, go ahead. Is it needed? No.
 

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bathroom guru
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I will have to agree with Angus, who is agreeing with Jaz!
I still use CBU - then Kerdi in all my custom showers

I personally like permabase for its ease of cutting and installation. I can also get it in 32x60, 36x60, and 4x8 sheets which is handy.
 

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I eat sawdust.
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OK, you've got a special situation and sounds like your local building department isn't familiar with alternative products and methods. But you're using Ditra, looks like.

It sounded as if you were saying Ditra is not for outdoor use. :thumbsup:

Jaz
Actually it's Ditra-Drain. It has weep holes in it :thumbup:
 

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I eat sawdust.
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Angus, I have seen some guys put a waterproof membrane over the durock in a custom shower.Is that an over kill in your opinion?I usualy install roofing papper over the studs-durock- then-tape and mud the seams and install the tile.Been doing it that way forever never had a problem.Thanx
Durock is not waterproof. Cementous backer boards absorb water.

You should use waterproofing of some kind.
 

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Anyone buying pallet loads of backer board direct from the manufacturer? Is it possible? I need about a pallet and a half and my retailer says I can't get a half pallet, only full pallet quantities. They mark the stuff up 20%. They don't stock 4x8 sheets, and this is why I'm special ordering. I need about 2000 SF.
 

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Tile Pro - Consulting
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You can't buy direct from the manufacturer unless you're an official distributor. If you're a tile setter you buy it from your local distributor. Obviously they don't want to stock 4x8 and so you'll have to order by the full pallet, that's normal and makes sense.

Why on earth do you have to have 4x8?

Jaz
 

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The 4x8's hang much faster on the walls, less joints. The 32x60's just seem stupid on anything but a tub surround. The 4x8's go much faster and less joints on wide open floors as well.
 

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I eat sawdust.
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The 4x8's hang much faster on the walls, less joints. The 32x60's just seem stupid on anything but a tub surround. The 4x8's go much faster and less joints on wide open floors as well.
My best prices I could find here for the 4x8 sheets was from a drywall distributor. Probably not as good of a deal as you're looking for but maybe they will be more negotiable.

Check your PM
 

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Durock= Okay, a bit prone to blowout on toenailed edges, nice and dense.
Wonderboard= Really hard and stiff, tough to nail through, really heavy.
Permabase= Handles well, stiff, nails well, use it a lot.
Hardiboard= Personally I don't trust it. Set it outside and watch it delaminate.
Denshield= Don't like that fiber dust. You can peel the surface off.
Easyboard= Never used it, I don't trust it anything I can put my fist through.

1/4" Permabase laminated with quality latex thinset. Used it for 10 years+ with no issues.

To each, his own.
Good post. I've been steering away from hardibacker as it does seem to suck up water. I'm liking denshield and tolerate the dust, treating it like drywall (vac). Liking the CBUs for floors, ditching the HB. I'll use ditra if I have some concern with cracking, but then if given the choice I'll use an antfracture membrane over those and ditch the ditra.
 

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Is that just an extra (costly and timely) step over just using Ditra?
No on both counts.
I just see the cracks and run some anti-fracture over them, then set the floor. I only need one type of thinset, doesn't eat thinset, it's easy to mark, easy to trowel, and can use whatever type of tile/stone I want on top--all things that ditra doesn't allow.
 

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I wouldn't use DensShield or any other gypsum based product. It's basically glorified drywall and not exceptionally good. The reason why people like it is that it is light and easy to work with but it performs poorly. Take a piece and submerge it in water for a while and you'll see what I am talking about. On top of that they have to put chemicals in the paper backing to ensure that mold and fugus don't grow.

Cement and fibre cement boards perform way better than any gypsum based products. The unfortunate thing is that they are heavy and hard on tools. I would take HARDIBACKER over DuROCK any day but even HARDIE is a tough product to work with.

Someone mentioned GREENE-BOARD and MagnesiaCore. These are both Magnesuium Oxide based backer boards and the advantage they have over cement and gypsum is that they perform like cement (very well) but are light and easy to install like gypsum based boards. There is another one available as well called Dragon Board. What makes them all environmentally friendly is the recycled content in them and the lack of any chemicals.

In Canada I have to use GREENE-BOARD over the other two. I found MagnesiaCore brittle to work with anyways but on top of that GREENE-BOARD is the only CCMC evaluated magnesium board available in Canada. As well it is the only board with a CAN/ULC S135 non-combustibility test done on it.

So of all the boards I know of GREENE-BOARD would be my choice. HARDIEBACKER would be a good option if I wasn't able to get my hands on GREENE-BOARD just because I know it works well.
 

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Durock is not waterproof. Cementous backer boards absorb water.

You should use waterproofing of some kind.
[....sigh....]

Unless it's a steam unit, millions of units have been installed w/o waterproofing of any kind sans horizontals, 90s and pans.

 

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...DensShield...Take a piece and submerge it in water for a while and you'll see what I am talking about. On top of that they have to put chemicals in the paper backing to ensure that mold and fugus don't grow.
Denshield has a 'waterproof' coating on the face of it, so the only places where water s/b able to penetrate is at the seams/ends. On verticals, one needn't worry about it (but I take a 39 pail of waterproofing and do the seams anyway). Where it abuts a horzontal, those 90s are waterproofed with the same 39 pail of redgard/aquadefense waterproofing, but fabric is also embedded.

I bet they put the mold/fungicide in the backing as protection from those that don't do the seam waterproofing and/or a sales tool as 'mold' has been a hot topic for a while now. Sort of like all the bioblock stuff in "mud" and caulks.

I would take HARDIBACKER over DuROCK any day but even HARDIE is a tough product to work with.
I've gone away from hardibacker, but still use it sometimes. I have a hardibacker cutter (shears) that's pretty slick. Around outside entrances, I often quickly paint down some of that $39/pail redgard/aquadefense or that billion dollar a bucket 9235. Don't have to, but I do a little bit extra.
I've gone back to the "durock/wonder board" on the floors due to me liking the smooth, flat surfaces--and having to tear up some floor that was rocked and tiled over.

Be interesting to see what the new rock is like.

I've used another product a lot in the past, but not recently as I've not done work on my own dime. I'm now all out of "leftovers" and work on my own dime, so I'm going to find it again. I'm amused that no one on any of the "tile/stone boards" mentions it. They don't have a large marketing arm though....so no hats, t-shirts or the like. ;)
 

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Carpe Diem
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[....sigh....]

Unless it's a steam unit, millions of units have been installed w/o waterproofing of any kind sans horizontals, 90s and pans.

And some now need replacing too. The old theory of not worrying about it is "good enough" for some. The newer theory of not letting moisture penetrate the tile substrate is a way to get a shower to last a lifetime, not just xx of years.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with waterproofing a (non steam) shower area. You can call it overkill if you'd like. In the big picture, the cost and time of waterproofing is completely minimal compared to "just good enough".

If it was truly "useless", the TCNA would not have spent the time testing, approving and publishing these materials and methods. But I suppose the TCNA is just another conspiracy, manufacter-loving, John Bridge marketing machine :rolleyes:
 

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The old theory of not worrying about it is "good enough" for some.
I didn't know it was "old". Following industry specifications are "old"?

Here, please contact them and tell them their stuff is "old". I'm sure they'd appreciate your instruction.

Tile Council of North America, Inc. (TCNA)
100 Clemson Research Blvd.
Anderson, SC 29625
Phone: 864-646-8453
Fax: 864-646-2821
Outside U.S.
Phone: +1-864-646-8453
Fax: +1-864-646-2821
The newer theory of not letting moisture penetrate the tile substrate is a way to get a shower to last a lifetime, not just xx of years.
"last a lifetime"? That's interesting.

Subject to the conditions and limitations as stated hereinafter, Schluter Systems L.P. warrants that Schluter-DITRA (the “Product”) will meet all composition and performance criteria for a period of five (5) years from the date of purchase only when the Product is used and installed in accordance with the terms and conditions of the Schluter-DITRA Installation Handbook and industry standard guidelines that are not in conflict with the Handbook.
http://www.schluter.com/5897.aspx
So if "new" is to do work that will "last a "lifetime", why do you use a product that will only offer a guarantee of 5 years?

Did they just mention "industry standard guidelines"?
Don't they know all those rules, guidelines, and such are "old"?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with waterproofing a (non steam) shower area. You can call it overkill if you'd like. In the big picture, the cost and time of waterproofing is completely minimal compared to "just good enough".
I've never met anyone that uses 100% solids epoxy grout on all their residential/homeowner installs.
Don't the homeowners complain about the stink?
How do you handle that? Do you explain to them that you won't do the "bare minimum" for them on their tub surround?
Do you charge more for your epoxy grout install also? Most do.

Good job. :thumbsup:
 

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Where do you find this info?
Can't use sheet as there are size limitations and a lot of floors use sheet for inlays. A lot of residential like the accents.

If you like the stuff and it works for you, then have at it. Just remember the size limitation when considering accents.
 

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Carpe Diem
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I've never met anyone that uses 100% solids epoxy grout on all their residential/homeowner installs.
Don't the homeowners complain about the stink?
You must not have met a few of the tile installers on this very site. :rolleyes:

I use urethane. No stink :thumbsup:

I warranty all tile work a minimum of 10 years. You wouldn't understand. :rolleyes:

TCNA shows "old" methods as well as new. Apparently, you don't check the handbook.

Why would you post Schluter's warranty? I said waterproof. You jumped to a Schluter conclusion pretty quick, eh?
 
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