If you want to carpentry as fine sculpture you certainly can. You will have better luck the higher the income distribution in your city. Denver, seattle, los angeles would be good candidates. Gonna be a tough life if youre trying to make it in the midwest.

 

I'm in Bellingham, Wa. North of Seattle about 1 hour. There is a market up here for it.

 

When you can Frame a 1500 square foot subfloor to a 32nd of an inch, you may have the skill set for finishing. Oh, and have an abundance of patience, because finicky work, with the required attention to detail, requires it.
Other than that, practice, practice, practice. Treat every job you do as if it is Finish work and you can obtain the mindset required.

 

I owned a custom furniture and cabinet shop for 15 years and that helped more than anything.You have to put in the time.There are no shortcuts that I know of.
Being detail oriented and a perfectionist helps but you still have to have the skills to complete the job in a timely manner in order to make a profit.You can't piddle around with a joint or two for an hour in order to get it perfect if you want to make money.You have to be able to get it perfect quick.
Build some cabinets or furniture on your own.Install crown in your own house and then give yourself an honest rating. Build some stairs.See if you could have made it profitable in the real world.
There are also a lot more material trimmers have to deal with these days than just wood.

 

Whoa whoa! I never said anything about short cuts. Simply. How did you start?

Sounds like I'm going down the right path. Yes I do my own projects from home. Every week I acquire more tools to do a better, more efficient job, and then practice at home.

I understand, and currently am doing, many different jobs than just a "finish carpenter." But I think I would like that to be the specialty.

I am just starting to understand the construction world. I just jumped in.

 

How did I start???
Well, back in the day, I was working for a guy that had bad knees and would rather pay me to be hand nailing base boards. This was before pin nailers. The base was oak and needed to be predrilled, hand nailed, and then the nails set.
From there, window casings and door installs happened. Then hardware and closet built-ins. Eventually, some crown mouldings and Library panelling, cabinets and tops.

Probably spend half my apprentice time with Finishers and Cabinet guys. Balance was cribbing, concrete and Framing.

 

Sounds like I'm on the right path then. Minus having to teach everything to myself. Luckily there are many resources at hand to tap into.

I did work for 3 years in aerospace as a finish carpenter essentially. Built furniture to within +-.03. Lots of brush aluminum trim, all mitered, milling multiple latches into one length of trim. You wouldn't believe the poor design these guys had. They would position two strike plates for latches in such a way that a 1" width piece of trim would end up with a 1/16" strip of trim between them.

If a measurement was off you had to restart. If you miter was poor or to short. Start over. If the gap milled out on the strike was off, start over. Sometimes you had 6+ strike plates to mill out of one piece of trim. You also had to support the weak point, or, you guessed it, START OVER.

$500.00 piece of brushed alum.

 

I was just stating that it takes lots of experience to be a proficient finish carpenter.Did not impose that you were looking for short cuts .Simply stating that IMHO there are none.

 

In general, as a businessman the challenge is finding the right balance between marketing expense, probability of successful execution, management of risks, and the ability to train labor to expand earning potential.[/QUOTE]

This is why I started a business. It also won't be my only business. I am finding I enjoy being a contractor more than I thought. I love this stuff.


Thank you!

 

I used to do some work for Dussault Falcon Jets. +_-.03 with wood.That was a trip but I liked it.

 

Yeah I enjoyed the precision. For some reason airbus had an even tighter tolerance at .001. Had to break out the proper calipers. There was one caliper they had that was 4+ feet and was accurate out .000.

 

yea.I mistyped it was .003.I made the components in my shop in IL and tried to explain to them the difference in humidity between here and AR could move them more than that but they did not seem to care. 100% inspection.Only time I've ever used mics and calipers in my cabinet shop but it paid very well.

 

My opinion may be biased, but I say if you want to become a great finish carpenter, start out as a framer. Many of the same rules apply. I know a lot of pretty good finish carpenters that would be much better off if they knew and understood framing. There is a general misconception that any finish guy can frame, but framers are not good enough to do finish.

 

You disappointed me my friend. They want be finish carpenters because - they are scarred from tough physical work, danger work, they do not know do any math, they do not want responsibilities. It is finish carpentry or no construction for most of them. Therefore is finish saturated and low paid. I know that framing guys at this forum are loaded with money as opposite to trimmers and so should be. From my side I will keep making clowns with my crown from untalented folks who over night decide to become “finish carpenters”.

 

I have to agree there .Many of the best finish carpenters I know started as framers .I started off building custom homes from start to finish Not fancy homes like you see these days just custom ranch homes in the early 70's with a guy that was 70 years odl at the time and had been doing it his whole life .Learned a lot of things from him that apply to framing or trim .

 

just start trimming houses and you will be on your way to the book of i know how to do it better next time . just do it

 

I am just going for it

 

Speed speed speed!!! you'll never be fast enough! At least that's my history of many years of finish carpentry

 

How did you get into finish carpentry? Where did you start? In hindsight, what is a good starting point?

I'm not a full-on finish carpenter; it's just one of the things I both love to do and do fairly well.

I got in via 2 years of school (heritage restoration carpentry, which was good for general learning, though I haven't done anything 'heritage' in years), then plenty of time doing renovation/remodeling. As others have mentioned, it's important to understand the bones of a house before you can trim it out. (How else are you going to find wood to nail to?)

So, as a starting point, I'd suggest you try to get a broad range of experience... framing, subsystems like plumbing and electrical, finishes like drywall, paint and flooring, and of course the skin: windows, doors, and exterior finish.

Sell yourself as the go-to guy for trim while doing all this. If you have the time, do all your paint grade trim as if it was stain grade. Listen to the smart guys here about honing your system for shooting trim efficiently and well.

Good luck!

 

You seem like a guy that cares about the quality of your work. That is something that is pretty hard to teach, if not impossible. Yet it is the one prerequisite to being good at the finish work. So by definition you start by caring.

Learning comes from being aware of quality not only at your work but others. Stop and look at work that catches your eye. Try to figure out how it was done. What tools did it take?

More important is what is it that caught your eye? Chances are it was a great sense of proportion and a wise choice of materials and moldings. Trim carpenters at their best have a great instinct of a smart design that functions as well as it looks.

Basically you need to embrace the obsession of the craft. Until you start commenting about the millwork in the background of a movie, you aren't quite there.

 

You seem like a guy that cares about the quality of your work.

You hit the nail on the head there. I've had most of my customers tell me I am "very meticulous" while handing me the check. Usually when finishing a job I'm pooping a brick because I'm worried they won't like my work, even though I know it's good, I still think it can be better.

I really appreciate your reply. Thank you.

 

Just my opinion, but talent only takes you so far in this business. You have to have efficient systems to implement quality and production to be profitable and desired by builders. From tracts to high end custom, they all have a deadline and a budget. The more you mesh efficiency with quality product, will yield the desirability of the good builders.

At least for me, the constant challenge of getting more efficient while maintaining a high quality standard is what makes this trade awesome.


Service Exceeding Expectation

 

Haven't read full thread, but...
As Gus said, it starts with passion. From there it goes to technique. However, technique won't earn a living. To get there it takes repetition to get fast enough to compete and eventually beat out others. Only then will you get enough work to make a living.
Joe

 

I first started as a framing labourer then got a job working for a builder.

I'm a perfectionist and love working with the little details that a lot of other people don't have the patience for. I got moved into finishing shortly after starting with the builder.

I think framing had a positive influence on my finishing. I was taught to hustle when needed but also to take time to get the little things right. I believe it gave me a balanced approach to starting finishing.

 

Best advice I could give is to find someone who is an established Finish Carpenter and work for him for at least 4 years ( apprenticeship ) and then if you think you are cut out for it try going into business as a contractor.

To become an accomplished Carpenter is an (accomplishment) it's not something that a man wakes up one day and decides he is one .

Don't take what I have said as an insult it is not meant that way . But Carpentry is a Trade not just an occupation or a business to go into, becoming a Journeyman is to become part of the Craft .

Good luck , I hope you do well .

 

Production or Fine

I know a guy that does production trim work, he can finish most houses in a day or two. He is paid by the foot, and has to replace his own 'mistakes'. He makes pretty good money because he his fast. That is the modern typical finish carpenter.

I know some guys that do general FINE trim carpentry. They do excellent work, charge market rates, and they eat peanut butter for dinner. It is a labor of love rather than profit.

My suggestion is to find a niche within the fine carpentry group. Try to work for the best in the business first-you will make mistakes and you might as well make them on someone else's dime. The cabinet guys do well because that is all they do and they are good and fast, and tooled up for it. The stair guys do well for the same reasons. And the wood flooring guys do great, and they will do baseboard too. The window guys do the windows....I even know a guy that builds secret doors.

Do what you do better and faster than anyone else and you will build a great pay-for-production business in your area. Hard work and persistence.

 

To reiterate what cbdi is saying; if you generalize and do 'finish carpentry' youre going to have a tough time making money. Spencer does well, but he has some large builders in his pocket. Without that kind of relationship it will be hard.

If its not about the money thats ok, but if you have mouths to feed one of the specializations should be chosen.

I got into hardwood because its predictable. I know exactly how long 400 square feet will take to finish. I know that the weather will not slow down work. I know what everyone is charging for that same 400 feet. Its also boring af and painful. I do it for the kids.

 

I am thinking the question is, how do you start a finish carpentry business.
Being a great finishing carpenter and a great businessman/person... are not the same.
If they were, there would not be so many great artists who died poor.
Just my thoughts.

 

Making money and becoming a Master of a craft are TWO different goals: Each will take about 10,000 hours for the non-naturals, the unlucky will never make money their first few tries.

 

Agree completely that mastery takes time.

However, accepting that you'll not make money for 5 years doesn't make sense. There are plenty of resources here and elsewhere that give a roadmap to figuring out costs of labor, material, overhead and profit. Once your numbers line up, getting work at the rate you need is about sales and marketing.

Yes, you'll spend to build your systems and be underpaid from time to time at the outset, but if it takes 5 years/10,000 hours, I think you're doing it wrong.