I've never heard of a premix lime mortar.

 

It is somewhat common in Europe, and is available in the states but is very expensive. Just use Type S lime and mix your own.

Edit- Here is one somewhat close to you:

http://www.usheritage.com/information.html

 

I used usheritage a few years back to repair on an ancient wall that was knocked down that HAD to be perfectly matched. They sent me premix that matched exactly and the customer was happy. It was expensive though.

 

The materials in europe are made for europe and not for this climate. I would stick to the powder.

 

A little further away...
http://www.degruchymasonry.com

And further still...
http://www.virginialimeworks.com

Good luck,
D.

 

Virginia lime works has a distributor in Chicago. I don't have the number in front of me, but they will have that which you seek.

I don't think that there is a big difference in mixing sand, lime mortar and water vs premix and water. Clean bagged sand is fairly available in Hoosier land.

 

Aurel -

What is the powder?

Portland cement, masonry cement, mortar cement or lime?

All of the cementitious materials in the U.S. are based on the traditional materials and are not earth-shaking.

You may find a bigger difference in the sand gradation (including the important fines) and particle shape when it comes to workability.

The basic materials are all available and it is up to a good mason to use them correctly and do the job right. It is not rocket science or a cookbook.

 

Thanks guys...this lime mortar thing is new to me.
From what I gather the recipes can vary quite a bit and I'm havin trouble deciding which to use. I would like to experiment with several mixes at home. I may have some Type S lime that the block truck driver uses on muddy job sites.

 

I doubt he uses Type S lime for that, it is probably chit-house house lime.

 

what is this type "S" lime that you always refer to? I'm familiar with Hydrated Lime, iminently hydraulic lime, feebly hydraulic lime, hydraulic lime and of course lime putty, but never heard of type "S" lime.

To the OP. Is the job being directed by any historical (hysterical" society. Is the building deemed heritage or is it just kind of old. If it's the latter, don't get too worked up about it. Use your regular sand, buy some bags of lime and use up to 1/3 the amount of portalnd as lime. It's nice to have a bit of portland so there is a reasonable set time. A pure lime mortar needs to be covered in burlap and hydrated for a week or more. With a bit of portland added, hanging wet burlap for the night and a decent soak the next day should be sufficient.

If it is heritage, get them to spec the exact mortar required. Determining the proper sand, and exact lime/portland ratios is a lot of fairly specialised work.

If you need/want to use lime putty you can make it easy enough yourself. get a mortar tub and fill it 2/3 with clean water. Put a screen over top and shake a bag of powdered lime into it dispersing it slowly and evenly making sure it's totally covered with water. Allow it to slake a minimum of 24 hrs, 48 is better. It is then lime putty. So long as there is water on top and it doesn't freeze it will last indefinitely. Putty makes for a very nice, workable, creamy mix.

 

Type S is a particular type of hydrated lime. S refers to the special high pressure slaking process that creates it, different from the normal (type n) atmospheric pressure process. For more info:

http://buildinglime.org/Thomson_TypeS.pdf

 

Interesting. I don't know if that designation exists in Canada. I've never seen it on a bag. I have seen "air entrained autoclaved" lime but that's about the fanciest I've seen. The iminentely, feebly and hydraulic limes are only things I've seen in books, never at a yard. Of course you could only get them as a putty I would think and they would have a shelf life.

 

It does have a shelf life in the bag, but the beauty is that you can hydrate it for 24 hours and have fully slaked lime.

 

To the OP. Is the job being directed by any historical (hysterical" society. Is the building deemed heritage or is it just kind of old. If it's the latter, don't get too worked up about it. Use your regular sand, buy some bags of lime and use up to 1/3 the amount of portalnd as lime. It's nice to have a bit of portland so there is a reasonable set time. A pure lime mortar needs to be covered in burlap and hydrated for a week or more. With a bit of portland added, hanging wet burlap for the night and a decent soak the next day should be sufficient.

This building has not been deemed heritage but the owner is hoping it eventually will be. The owner says is was built in "1900" and wants it done with lime mortar.

 

Owner sound smart to want to use lime, not so smart to want it deemed heritage. Lime mortars are great, better if the hystericals aren't involved. An all around good mix for re-pointing is 3 lime, 1 portland (white portland if the joints need to be pure white) and 10 sand for brick. 2 lime, 1 portland and 8 sand isn't bad for stone if it's reasonably hard. Both these mixes are fairly rich and workable.

 

[

QUOTE=Tscarborough;1421709]I doubt he uses Type S lime for that, it is probably chit-house house lime.

[/QUOTE]

I have partial bag that I saved one time and I checked it this afternoon and the bag says type s. He is a very good driver and calls it a tow truck in a bag.:laughing:

 

Not only is that a good repointing mix, for soft stone or brick it is an ideal mortar.

 

You can't get Feebly, Moderately or Eminently hydraulic lime as a putty as it will go hard in water.
Nowadays it's called NHL 2, NHL 3.5 and NHL 5. I see that Virginialimeworks stocks it.
Normally we use 3.5 for external work or 5.0 for chimneys or other really exposed areas. 2 is for really sheltered or inside.
The latest info on lime mortar is that cement shouldn't be added if possible as it reduces it's ability to breathe and can separate from the lime over the years. However lime can be added to a cement mortar such as a 1/1/6 gauge.

 

That makes sense about the hydraulic limes only coming in bags

What is the difference though in using a bit of portland as opposed to a hydraulic lime. Portland is still burnt limestone with an alumina and silica content. Basically using an impure limestone. From my understanding Portland is essentially the most hydraulic of the limes. Haven't done any real looking into it, that's just my understanding.

 

I'll have to have a look on the net later to see if I can find you any info. For years a bit of portland was used with pure lime, but the latest info from the Building Research Establishment here suggests that the lime with OPC doesn't breathe as well as even 5.0 NHL which is the hardest of the limes, even with only a small amount of OPC.

 

If you could find a link that would be great. I'm not very good at searching the web

 

http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles//cement/cement.htm
Here's one I found

 

that's interesting. As little as 5% can be a problem. That's tough, Can't find hydraulic limes readily available here, nor brick dust. And I don't have the time or desire to make any. Something I'm going to have to think about next restoration job

 

Dom-mas:

Air entrained autoclave is another name for type SA. So, that is a type S.

Cement + lime does not equal hydraulic lime.

Grey cement has four phases:
alite, belite, celite, ferrite. Alite and belite are most of it. Alites set fast, while belites are the slow setting part. NHL is all belite.

 

I actually used Spec-Mix Lime and Sand Type S today...comes in blue Spec-Mix bag with red tag..not bad but would not use on big jobs.

 

what's NHL? Normal hydrated lime?

While I know that Lime + Portland doesn't = hydraulic lime it is like taking a white flour, adding wheat germ and fiber or whatever and calling it wholewheat flour (only analogy I can think of right now I'll think of a better one after I log out) Same ingredients just put together right before mixing rather than in the rock millions of years ago. I never would have thought that the portland would migrate after the set and seal the lime. I know that lime migrates a bit but never would have thought the Portland would. Or maybe it does it before the full set has occured. I'll have to re-read that article.

 

what's NHL? Normal hydrated lime?

.

Close.
Natural Hydraulic Lime.

 

Ok guys I'm trying to let this soak all in.:clap:

Thanks for all the replys up to now.................

 

Ok re-read the article and I guess the portland migrates during the set. That makes way more sense. Oh boy on the look out for damned brick dust.

Any one kow the ratio needed? I used it once just for fun on a small job where I was just replacing a dozen or so bricks. I can't remember how much I used and don't know whether it was even a decent mix since the house was torn down a year after I did the repair (redevelopment)