Hi all, I'm having discussions with a contractor I used late last fall to replace the eavestrough system on the lower level of my house. The following are our communications to date. By way of additional information, the gross leak is located at the corner of the attached garage (unheated) and the house. If further information would help, let me know. Please feel free to respond anonymously but please include your qualifications as an expert... Thanks in advance, Eric (Home Owner)
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From: Eric (Home Owner)
To: Brian (Contractor)
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: Urgent: Water Problem
Brian (Contractor), Thank you for your reply. However, I take exception to most of your response. Please find below your quoted response with my comments in "Red":
"Eric (Home Owner), I object to your comment that my men did a "pseudo inspection" of your stated eavestrough problem (Your men were unable to show me they had properly sealed the joints, as requested, and ignored my comments regarding proper drainage slope of the eavestrough, therefore pseudo inspection applies) . They in fact did as thorough an inspection of the conditions as possible and reported to both yourself and to me (see previous comment) . This was done even though the eavestrough and valley at that point were covered in ice build-up (Yes, there is excessive ice build-up as I have already stated. However, this was caused by inadequate drainage slope of the installed eavestrough) . Due to other liability issues, we cannot be expected to take the risk of melting ice on your roof (?) , unless specifically contracted to do that at your cost (No) . Also the pictures that you provided are not at all relevant to the situation on the roof as they are all taken from underneath and show only the subsequent water drips (No, view the drip edge picture which clearly shows the high point of the eavestrough system is mounted too low. See attached proper installation diagram -FORUM NOTE CANNOT ATTACH DUE TO THREE PICTURES MAX-) . The eavestrough area that we are talking about here is at the blank end of the trough and is the farthest point away from a downspout (Yes) , and , additionally has to make two ninety degree turns to get there (No, leaks at corner. Therefore, one 90 degree to get to downspout) . This does not constitute good initial design or location of the drop points (Has never been a problem in nearly 20 years) .
Eavestrough is generally attached to the home in an almost level position for aesthetic reasons (No, eavestroughs should be installed with a drainage slope of 1/2" per 10 FT run. See: http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/knowhow/handbook/article/0,16417,442134,00.html ) . A small amount of water sits in almost any eavestrough to a depth of perhaps one quarter inch (See previous comment. In addition, an additional 1"+ of slope is simply available as shown in previous referenced picture). At this time of year, with weather conditions as they have been for the last three weeks, a condition called "ice-damming" occurs (No, the situation here is due to ice build-up in the eavestrough that has backed-up onto the roof. See: http://www.hometime.com/Howto/projects/roofing/roof_6.htm ) . This condition can and will occur in almost any eavestrough regardless of slope and in fact occurs in the downspouts also! This is caused by snow melting on the roof above the main part of the structure where heat loss occurs, and is also assisted by sunshine. The water runs down the roof and as it gets to the unheated overhang part of the roof above the soffits, it immediately freezes and causes ice build up on the bottom edge of the roof (Not applicable, see previous comment) . An additional amount of this water, assisted by sunshine drops into the eavestrough and again immediately freezes in the eavestroughs (No, your sequence of events are reversed) . The only cure for this anomaly of the weather, is to install a heating cable along the bottom portion of the roof (overhang) and in the eavestrough (No, properly installed eavestrough would prevent my problem, as described. Again, this has not been a problem in the past. As we live in Southwestern Ontario, many freeze-thaw cycles during winter is very common) .
In respect to water leaking into you basement, this simply indicates that you have a foundation problem. As ground water around the foundation is a normal situation, a draintile and sump pump is provided to alleviate this situation. Any water that runs onto the ground should also percolate down to the weeping tile at the foundation and subsequently into you sump pit, where the pump then pumps it to the storm sewers. The eavestroughs simply prevent excessive water from having to run through your draintile to your sump pump, by diverting it directly to the storm sewers (I do not know as further investigation would be required. However, a plausible cause would be that water percolated into the soil, then froze cracking the basement wall because of the excessive leaking of the eavestrough in this location. Again, water leakage into the basement has not been a problem in nearly twenty years) .
When the ice has completely melted from your eavestroughs, we will be pleased to check the internal caulking in them to eliminate any drips that may exist (Not acceptable) . If you do not find this to be a reasonable and logical explanation of the conditions, please let me know.
Yours, Brian (Contractor)."
Respectfully,
Eric (Home Owner)
w/ Attachment
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian (Contractor)
To: Eric (Home Owner)
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: Urgent: Water Problem
Eric (Home Owner), I object to your comment that my men did a "pseudo inspection" of your stated eavestrough problem. They in fact did as thorough an inspection of the conditions as possible and reported to both yourself and to me. This was done even though the eavestrough and valley at that point were covered in ice build-up. Due to other liability issues, we cannot be expected to take the risk of melting ice on your roof, unless specifically contracted to do that at your cost. Also the pictures that you provided are not at all relevant to the situation on the roof as they are all taken from underneath and show only the subsequent water drips. The eavestrough area that we are talking about here is at the blank end of the trough and is the farthest point away from a downspout, and , additionally has to make two ninety degree turns to get there. This does not constitute good initial design or location of the drop points.
Eavestrough is generally attached to the home in an almost level position for aesthetic reasons. A small amount of water sits in almost any eavestrough to a depth of perhaps one quarter inch. At this time of year, with weather conditions as they have been for the last three weeks, a condition called "ice-damming" occurs. This condition can and will occur in almost any eavestrough regardless of slope and in fact occurs in the downspouts also! This is caused by snow melting on the roof above the main part of the structure where heat loss occurs, and is also assisted by sunshine. The water runs down the roof and as it gets to the unheated overhang part of the roof above the soffits, it immediately freezes and causes ice build up on the bottom edge of the roof. An additional amount of this water, assisted by sunshine drops into the eavestrough and again immediately freezes in the eavestroughs. The only cure for this anomaly of the weather, is to install a heating cable along the bottom portion of the roof (overhang) and in the eavestrough.
In respect to water leaking into you basement, this simply indicates that you have a foundation problem. As ground water around the foundation is a normal situation, a draintile and sump pump is provided to alleviate this situation. Any water that runs onto the ground should also percolate down to the weeping tile at the foundation and subsequently into you sump pit, where the pump then pumps it to the storm sewers. The eavestroughs simply prevent excessive water from having to run through your draintile to your sump pump, by diverting it directly to the storm sewers.
When the ice has completely melted from your eavestroughs, we will be pleased to check the internal caulking in them to eliminate any drips that may exist. If you do not find this to be a reasonable and logical explanation of the conditions, please let me know.
Yours, Brian.
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric (Home Owner)
To: Brian (Contractor)
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: Urgent: Water Problem
Hi Brian, further to your employees' pseudo inspection and our phone conversation of yesterday (where your position was that ServiceMaster had no responsibility with regards to excessive water leakage* from your installed eavestrough and subsequent water leakage in my basement), I have performed a proper inspection, as follows:
1. Excessive ice build-up in the previously identified area was removed using a hair dryer and hot water. This exposed the area for proper inspection.
2. The highest point of the eavestrough is about even with the bottom of the drip edge**. This has resulted in little or no drainage slope of the installed eavestrough. Poor drainage slope resulted in the excessive ice build-up in the eavestrough. Eavestrough position has not shifted under the ice load as witnessed by eavestrough hanger orientation.
3. With the excessive ice build-up removed, I poured water into the eavestrough and, without water overflowing it, I was able to duplicate the excessive water leakage*** at the joints, as initially experienced*. The eavestrough needed to be about 70% full to experience this leakage. As a second level downspout and hip gutter are located here, 70% full would not be uncommon.
4. Since moving here in 1985, we have never experienced this problem before.
* See Camera Picture 1
** See Camera Picture 3
*** See Camera Picture 2
Please reply to this email, indicating if your position has changed or not on this issue.
Respectfully,
Eric (Home Owner).
with Attachments
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric (Home Owner)
To: Brian (Contractor)
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 2:02 PM
Subject: Urgent: Water Problem
Hi Brian (Contractor), It appears that the joint sealing was done poorly or not at all. This is right by the man door and now we have water leaking into the basement.
Please send someone ASAP.
Thanks,
Eric (Home Owner)
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From: Eric (Home Owner)
To: Brian (Contractor)
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: Urgent: Water Problem
Brian (Contractor), Thank you for your reply. However, I take exception to most of your response. Please find below your quoted response with my comments in "Red":
"Eric (Home Owner), I object to your comment that my men did a "pseudo inspection" of your stated eavestrough problem (Your men were unable to show me they had properly sealed the joints, as requested, and ignored my comments regarding proper drainage slope of the eavestrough, therefore pseudo inspection applies) . They in fact did as thorough an inspection of the conditions as possible and reported to both yourself and to me (see previous comment) . This was done even though the eavestrough and valley at that point were covered in ice build-up (Yes, there is excessive ice build-up as I have already stated. However, this was caused by inadequate drainage slope of the installed eavestrough) . Due to other liability issues, we cannot be expected to take the risk of melting ice on your roof (?) , unless specifically contracted to do that at your cost (No) . Also the pictures that you provided are not at all relevant to the situation on the roof as they are all taken from underneath and show only the subsequent water drips (No, view the drip edge picture which clearly shows the high point of the eavestrough system is mounted too low. See attached proper installation diagram -FORUM NOTE CANNOT ATTACH DUE TO THREE PICTURES MAX-) . The eavestrough area that we are talking about here is at the blank end of the trough and is the farthest point away from a downspout (Yes) , and , additionally has to make two ninety degree turns to get there (No, leaks at corner. Therefore, one 90 degree to get to downspout) . This does not constitute good initial design or location of the drop points (Has never been a problem in nearly 20 years) .
Eavestrough is generally attached to the home in an almost level position for aesthetic reasons (No, eavestroughs should be installed with a drainage slope of 1/2" per 10 FT run. See: http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/knowhow/handbook/article/0,16417,442134,00.html ) . A small amount of water sits in almost any eavestrough to a depth of perhaps one quarter inch (See previous comment. In addition, an additional 1"+ of slope is simply available as shown in previous referenced picture). At this time of year, with weather conditions as they have been for the last three weeks, a condition called "ice-damming" occurs (No, the situation here is due to ice build-up in the eavestrough that has backed-up onto the roof. See: http://www.hometime.com/Howto/projects/roofing/roof_6.htm ) . This condition can and will occur in almost any eavestrough regardless of slope and in fact occurs in the downspouts also! This is caused by snow melting on the roof above the main part of the structure where heat loss occurs, and is also assisted by sunshine. The water runs down the roof and as it gets to the unheated overhang part of the roof above the soffits, it immediately freezes and causes ice build up on the bottom edge of the roof (Not applicable, see previous comment) . An additional amount of this water, assisted by sunshine drops into the eavestrough and again immediately freezes in the eavestroughs (No, your sequence of events are reversed) . The only cure for this anomaly of the weather, is to install a heating cable along the bottom portion of the roof (overhang) and in the eavestrough (No, properly installed eavestrough would prevent my problem, as described. Again, this has not been a problem in the past. As we live in Southwestern Ontario, many freeze-thaw cycles during winter is very common) .
In respect to water leaking into you basement, this simply indicates that you have a foundation problem. As ground water around the foundation is a normal situation, a draintile and sump pump is provided to alleviate this situation. Any water that runs onto the ground should also percolate down to the weeping tile at the foundation and subsequently into you sump pit, where the pump then pumps it to the storm sewers. The eavestroughs simply prevent excessive water from having to run through your draintile to your sump pump, by diverting it directly to the storm sewers (I do not know as further investigation would be required. However, a plausible cause would be that water percolated into the soil, then froze cracking the basement wall because of the excessive leaking of the eavestrough in this location. Again, water leakage into the basement has not been a problem in nearly twenty years) .
When the ice has completely melted from your eavestroughs, we will be pleased to check the internal caulking in them to eliminate any drips that may exist (Not acceptable) . If you do not find this to be a reasonable and logical explanation of the conditions, please let me know.
Yours, Brian (Contractor)."
Respectfully,
Eric (Home Owner)
w/ Attachment
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian (Contractor)
To: Eric (Home Owner)
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: Urgent: Water Problem
Eric (Home Owner), I object to your comment that my men did a "pseudo inspection" of your stated eavestrough problem. They in fact did as thorough an inspection of the conditions as possible and reported to both yourself and to me. This was done even though the eavestrough and valley at that point were covered in ice build-up. Due to other liability issues, we cannot be expected to take the risk of melting ice on your roof, unless specifically contracted to do that at your cost. Also the pictures that you provided are not at all relevant to the situation on the roof as they are all taken from underneath and show only the subsequent water drips. The eavestrough area that we are talking about here is at the blank end of the trough and is the farthest point away from a downspout, and , additionally has to make two ninety degree turns to get there. This does not constitute good initial design or location of the drop points.
Eavestrough is generally attached to the home in an almost level position for aesthetic reasons. A small amount of water sits in almost any eavestrough to a depth of perhaps one quarter inch. At this time of year, with weather conditions as they have been for the last three weeks, a condition called "ice-damming" occurs. This condition can and will occur in almost any eavestrough regardless of slope and in fact occurs in the downspouts also! This is caused by snow melting on the roof above the main part of the structure where heat loss occurs, and is also assisted by sunshine. The water runs down the roof and as it gets to the unheated overhang part of the roof above the soffits, it immediately freezes and causes ice build up on the bottom edge of the roof. An additional amount of this water, assisted by sunshine drops into the eavestrough and again immediately freezes in the eavestroughs. The only cure for this anomaly of the weather, is to install a heating cable along the bottom portion of the roof (overhang) and in the eavestrough.
In respect to water leaking into you basement, this simply indicates that you have a foundation problem. As ground water around the foundation is a normal situation, a draintile and sump pump is provided to alleviate this situation. Any water that runs onto the ground should also percolate down to the weeping tile at the foundation and subsequently into you sump pit, where the pump then pumps it to the storm sewers. The eavestroughs simply prevent excessive water from having to run through your draintile to your sump pump, by diverting it directly to the storm sewers.
When the ice has completely melted from your eavestroughs, we will be pleased to check the internal caulking in them to eliminate any drips that may exist. If you do not find this to be a reasonable and logical explanation of the conditions, please let me know.
Yours, Brian.
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric (Home Owner)
To: Brian (Contractor)
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: Urgent: Water Problem
Hi Brian, further to your employees' pseudo inspection and our phone conversation of yesterday (where your position was that ServiceMaster had no responsibility with regards to excessive water leakage* from your installed eavestrough and subsequent water leakage in my basement), I have performed a proper inspection, as follows:
1. Excessive ice build-up in the previously identified area was removed using a hair dryer and hot water. This exposed the area for proper inspection.
2. The highest point of the eavestrough is about even with the bottom of the drip edge**. This has resulted in little or no drainage slope of the installed eavestrough. Poor drainage slope resulted in the excessive ice build-up in the eavestrough. Eavestrough position has not shifted under the ice load as witnessed by eavestrough hanger orientation.
3. With the excessive ice build-up removed, I poured water into the eavestrough and, without water overflowing it, I was able to duplicate the excessive water leakage*** at the joints, as initially experienced*. The eavestrough needed to be about 70% full to experience this leakage. As a second level downspout and hip gutter are located here, 70% full would not be uncommon.
4. Since moving here in 1985, we have never experienced this problem before.
* See Camera Picture 1
** See Camera Picture 3
*** See Camera Picture 2
Please reply to this email, indicating if your position has changed or not on this issue.
Respectfully,
Eric (Home Owner).
with Attachments
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric (Home Owner)
To: Brian (Contractor)
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 2:02 PM
Subject: Urgent: Water Problem
Hi Brian (Contractor), It appears that the joint sealing was done poorly or not at all. This is right by the man door and now we have water leaking into the basement.
Please send someone ASAP.
Thanks,
Eric (Home Owner)
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