Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum banner
1 - 20 of 28 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
339 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Got another van, so looking to add another vac for it.
I already have the Festool and Turbo II. Festool hardly ever comes out to play. It's my garage queen. The Turbo II IMO has a bit better suction power.

Let me hear it , if you have some experience with the Makita vac
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,403 Posts
mobiledynamics said:
Got another van, so looking to add another vac for it. I already have the Festool and Turbo II. Festool hardly ever comes out to play. It's my garage queen. The Turbo II IMO has a bit better suction power. Let me hear it , if you have some experience with the Makita vac
What festool do you have. All of them have the same motor, CFM and lift specs now so they should all be more powerful than the Turbo ll.

The Makita is a nice vacuum. A lot of company's rebrand nilfisk vacs so its a quality vac. Not as powerful as the festool from what I have read but its quite a bit cheaper than festools AC vac. If you don't want anti static hose or true EPA compliant vac then its a good choice.

Also if you want more suction and ain't worried about HEPA filtration put the AC filter in the normal CT vac. There's a lot less restriction to airflow and still very good filtration. It's just not safe for lead dust remember.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
339 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
You have a point here....as the Fein doesn't have the Hepa and the Green does. Not sure much it decreases the CFM but it's a noticable difference when I use the Fein.

Back on topic, the Makita was a Nifisk, like the original AC vac if I recall...
The one thing that intrigued me is the self cleaning on these newer vacs. Which is a godsend in itself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
543 Posts
mobiledynamics said:
You have a point here....as the Fein doesn't have the Hepa and the Green does. Not sure much it decreases the CFM but it's a noticable difference when I use the Fein. Back on topic, the Makita was a Nifisk, like the original AC vac if I recall... The one thing that intrigued me is the self cleaning on these newer vacs. Which is a godsend in itself.
p
Yes I need the self clean to and am trying to decide,I want it for deck sanding,Reno work,crown mdf and some odd drywall jobs
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,403 Posts
I have used AC on my CT for wood. It don't make a big difference. It helps a little but where it shines is drywall dust. Because of the way it compacts against the bag it clogs the bags up good but when using it on a AC vac without the bag it clogs the filter but gets blown back out so you are left with very good suction. Basically if your using a bag and it's not drywall or concrete dust then AC is all most pointless.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
683 Posts
If you don't want anti static hose or true EPA compliant vac then its a good choice.
From the Makita website:
-Meets the EPA (RRP) rule for HEPA vacuums(with Hepa filters installed)
filters come with certificate
-Comes with an 16ft anti static hose
-59db
-27lbs

Festool Vac
-includes 11.5ft anti static hose
-71db
-35.9lbs
 

·
stacker of sticks
Joined
·
8,502 Posts
jiffy said:
From the Makita website: -Meets the EPA (RRP) rule for HEPA vacuums(with Hepa filters installed) filters come with certificate -Comes with an 16ft anti static hose -59db -27lbs Festool Vac -includes 11.5ft anti static hose -71db -35.9lbs
What festool vac?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,403 Posts
jiffy said:
From the Makita website: -Meets the EPA (RRP) rule for HEPA vacuums(with Hepa filters installed) filters come with certificate -Comes with an 16ft anti static hose -59db -27lbs Festool Vac -includes 11.5ft anti static hose -71db -35.9lbs
only vacs that are designed and tested with the HEPA filter installed as sold are compliant. There was a massive thread about this a while back. Just adding a HEPA filter does not make it compliant to RRP. Lots of vac company's are giving out HEPA certificates saying it means its certified. All thats certified is the filter and not the unit. Basically it needs full unit certification to meet EPA's guidelines. I don't doubt the Makita could pass it but until it's tested its a liability if you do RRP work with it.

Thought it didn't come with the AS hose but could be the Bosch I'm thinking of.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
543 Posts
BCConstruction said:
only vacs that are designed and tested with the HEPA filter installed as sold are compliant. There was a massive thread about this a while back. Just adding a HEPA filter does not make it compliant to RRP. Lots of vac company's are giving out HEPA certificates saying it means its certified. All thats certified is the filter and not the unit. Basically it needs full unit certification to meet EPA's guidelines. I don't doubt the Makita could pass it but until it's tested its a liability if you do RRP work with it. Thought it didn't come with the AS hose but could be the Bosch I'm thinking of.



Makita is looking a deal better if you don't need the hepa cert .i like 16 ft hose
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
683 Posts
only vacs that are designed and tested with the HEPA filter installed as sold are compliant. There was a massive thread about this a while back. Just adding a HEPA filter does not make it compliant to RRP. Lots of vac company's are giving out HEPA certificates saying it means its certified. All thats certified is the filter and not the unit. Basically it needs full unit certification to meet EPA's guidelines. I don't doubt the Makita could pass it but until it's tested its a liability if you do RRP work with it.

Thought it didn't come with the AS hose but could be the Bosch I'm thinking of.
I remember that thread and the details were blurry at best. I've read the Festool website and it is clear on their website, of course. But, if you read the link they have to the EPA site, it becomes cloudy again. I can't find any claim that the full vacuum has to be approved or tested. The below seems to state it is simply the filter.

Maybe someone else can see better details from the below excerpt, on the EPA page, that Festool links.

http://blog.festoolusa.com/post/2011/09/30/Full-Unit-HEPA-3d-Full-Compliance-for-EPA-RRP.aspx


Page 18 section 8. states:

8. HEPA vacuums. In May 2010, EPA proposed to clarify that vacuums qualifying as HEPA vacuums for the purposes of this rule must be operated and maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions in order to continue to qualify as HEPA vacuums. This includes following the manufacturer's filter change interval recommendations. EPA also proposed to clarify that the standard for HEPA filters, that they be capable of capturing particles of 0.3 microns with 99.97% efficiency, means that the filters must have a Minimum Efficiency Reporting Value (MERV) of 17 or greater. At the time, EPA also recommended that renovation firms have information from the manufacturer that the particular model of vacuum that the renovation firm intends to use, or the vacuum's HEPA filter, has been tested in accordance with an applicable test method, such as ASTM F1471-09, “Standard Test Method for Air Cleaning Performance of a High-Efficiency Particulate Air-Filter System,” and has been determined to meet this standard (Ref. 13).
EPA received a number of comments on these proposed revisions. Commenters specifically addressing the requirement that vacuums be operated in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions, including filter change interval recommendations, were in general agreement with the requirement. Other commenters expressed a general concern that these revisions would prohibit the use of consumer-grade HEPA vacuums that renovation firms had recently purchased to comply with the RRP rule. Some argued that the proposed language regarding the MERV was too stringent, given industry practice for high-efficiency vacuums. One commenter cited research they had done on the efficiency of HEPA vacuums to argue that the HEPA vacuums used in EPA's Dust Study would not have met the MERV standard proposed by EPA. However, the commenter did not provide sufficient information to support this assertion. Several commenters echoed comments EPA received during the rulemaking process for the 2008 RRP rule, arguing that HEPA vacuums are too expensive and are not necessary. Other commenters believed that additional requirements should be added, such as a requirement to field test the efficiency of the vacuums on a regular basis or after filter changes.
EPA continues to believe that HEPA vacuums are a necessary part of the required RRP work practices. In addition, the OSHA Lead in Construction standard requires the use of HEPA vacuums whenever vacuums are used. However, EPA also understands the concerns of those commenters who had already purchased HEPA vacuums for purposes of the RRP rule as well as those others who thought that the proposed MERV value of 17 would be too stringent. In balancing these concerns, EPA has decided to promulgate the requirement that HEPA vacuums be operated in accordance with manufacturer's instructions, but not the requirement that compliant vacuums be rated at a MERV value of 17 or higher.
In addition, in response to EPA's recommendation that renovation firms obtain information from the manufacturer that the efficiency of their particular model of HEPA vacuum or HEPA filter has been tested in accordance with an applicable test method, some commenters noted that this information may not be readily available to renovation firms. These commenters suggested that EPA maintain a list of HEPA vacuums that have been tested and found to meet the HEPA vacuum requirements.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,864 Posts
The rule does not require independent testing. All it says is that the contractor has to use a vacuum designed so that no air bypasses the filter, and a HEPA filter that performs to their specifications be. Most good vacuums would pass with little effort. I'm not talking Shop Vac, Ridgid and the like, but Festool, Nilfisk, etc. Only the filers are certified to any standard.

Basically the EPA left it to the manufacturers to self police. I would suggest that we as contractors need to follow some common sense and make sure we have good equipment, but if you read the law, it says nothing about the whole unit having to be certified. It says that some vacuums MAY NOT comply by just replacing the filter, but they don't say it WILL NOT comply. If the manual for your vac says that it is designed so that all the air goes through the filter, you are okay to replace the filter with a HEPA filter rated for 99.97 of all particles 0.3 microns and larger and be on your merry way. If this is not specifically stated, you're on you own. Festool has even stated that all Mini and Midi vacs are compliant, even though the were designed and built long before RRP. All you need is a new HEPA filter.

One thing you do have to do is follow the manufacturers instructions. Festool says you have to send in you vac for service at certain intervals. Who here has done that?
 

·
GC/carpenter
Joined
·
43,902 Posts
Rustbucket said:
The rule does not require independent testing. All it says is that the contractor has to use a vacuum designed so that no air bypasses the filter, and a HEPA filter that performs to their specifications be. Most good vacuums would pass with little effort. I'm not talking Shop Vac, Ridgid and the like, but Festool, Nilfisk, etc. Only the filers are certified to any standard. Basically the EPA left it to the manufacturers to self police. I would suggest that we as contractors need to follow some common sense and make sure we have good equipment, but if you read the law, it says nothing about the whole unit having to be certified. It says that some vacuums MAY NOT comply by just replacing the filter, but they don't say it WILL NOT comply. If the manual for your vac says that it is designed so that all the air goes through the filter, you are okay to replace the filter with a HEPA filter rated for 99.97 of all particles 0.3 microns and larger and be on your merry way. If this is not specifically stated, you're on you own. Festool has even stated that all Mini and Midi vacs are compliant, even though the were designed and built long before RRP. All you need is a new HEPA filter. One thing you do have to do is follow the manufacturers instructions. Festool says you have to send in you vac for service at certain intervals. Who here has done that?
All you have to do is claim I'm not at my first interval yet. Can't you?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,864 Posts
Californiadecks said:
All you have to do is claim I'm not at my first interval yet. Can't you?
I doubt anyone will even check on this if you keep you equipment maintained. But if it comes up, they could ask for receipts, or probably look at the tag on the vac to determine when it was made. Then they could ask for a service receipt. This would be extreme, but it could happen. Just takes one A-hole!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,403 Posts
As far as I know festool sent all the vacs of to be tested for full unit certification. that other thread was exactly like this one started. it's not a case of you can't put a HEPA filter into a vac and it not be fully capable unit its a case of most vacs won't be. The festool was a vac with a HEPA filter. It originally came with a gen 1 HEPA filter yet after certification it required a gen 2 filter to be certified. It was basically a beefed up version of the original. Some where in EPA's small print it says the vacuum must be design so that all air passes through the filter. Which most don't. which is very hard to do with AC vacs that open a bypass and give the filter a pounding. Which is why festool didn't bother doing the AC model for certification from what I heard. Not that I would run a HEPA filter in it and run AC but some would. I will say again I don't doubt the Makita could pass if tested but if it could why not just get it tested for full unit certification. I wouldn't give a crap though if I was not doing RRP but to do all that clean up and prep and then just spit the lead dust back out on your final clean kind of defeats the purpose lol
 

·
Administrator
Maker of Fine Sawdust
Joined
·
55,622 Posts
My Fein is a HEPA and compliant. I took the HEPA filter off and replaced it with a 1 micron for my sanding. I know it has more suction than the older Festools, I don't know about the newer ones. And I don't know about it suction with the HEPA filter on it. I do know it's more quiet than the Festool. I like the Festools square design better for tool storage. But my Fein is relegated to the shop and inside a cart for the Mirka Ceros sander. On occasion I take it out of its cage to play.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,864 Posts
Californiadecks said:
What's an AC vac and is my Midi certified for RRP?
I'm not sure what AC stands for, but it has an auto clean feature for the filter. Basically there is a device in there that beats the filter to dislodge caked on dust. It's mainly for drywall.

The Midi is certified. All you need is a new HEPA filter rated to the proper specs. If you contact Festool, they will even send you a sticker! Strictly speaking, the sticker isn't necessary. Just keep your manual handy.
 
1 - 20 of 28 Posts
Top