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Any Fencing Contractors out there?

15K views 67 replies 8 participants last post by  DecksEtc 
1. I have started advertising now and will increasing my advertising the closer we get to March/April. You don’t say what area of Ontario you are in but for me, I always hope for the snow to melt sooner than later. People start receiving year end performance bonuses and income tax refunds soon and hopefully they will be thinking about how to spend it on a deck or fence soon.
2. I avoid digging holes at all costs. So, as long as my post-hole guy can get access (he needs 42” clearance), I have him do them with his Kuboto tractor and auger. I don’t have the time to waste digging holes and mixing cement. My guy gives me an excellent price too.
3. If I do have to do them myself, I rent either a one-man or two-man auger – depending, of course, on whether I have a helper available.
4. When it comes to cost it depends greatly on what type of fencing you are doing. In my area the going rate for 6’ board-on-board fencing without lattice is around $21/foot and 6’ board-on-board fencing with lattice is about 23’/foot. You’ll need to find out what the going rate is for your area and adjust accordingly.
5. My post guy digs, levels, mixes the cement and set’s the posts. If I do it myself I just use stakes, string, post level and my eye.
6. I always use fence brackets and screws – it makes it easy should a customer ever need to remove a section. I air nail the fence boards but I use screws everywhere else.
7. I haven’t had much call for composites. It would depend on your area, I guess.
8. I never, never, never, ever get wood from HD. Did I say never enough? If I’m desperate, I’ll settle for Rona but my main supplier is a local lumber yard. They give me 10% of my purchases back in “points”, and the points don’t take long to add up!
9. I will reduce my price by $1/foot if there are more than 3 houses.
10. Unless you have a lot of posts, it isn’t very economical to order a truck. Again, it depends greatly on your area and costs. That’s something you’ll have to do the math on.
11. Other advice….well, that’s a bit of a general question to answer with specific answers. Read through the posts here, the business ones have a lot of posts along the lines of this topic. Be careful not to under price yourself and ensure you’re making enough money on each job. You’re running a business now, not a charity.

By the way, I should have asked first, you’re not in my area, are you?

Good luck!
 
1. Targeting new subdivisions is a good place to start. You'll want to go after them before the larger companies get in there. Focus on your being local and your attention to detail, etc. When it comes to grass, etc. it really isn't up to the builder, it's up to the city. What I mean is that the homeowner needs to have received their grading clearance from the city before installing a fence. I don't mean a permit. Grading clearance means the city has checked the grading and approved it for the builder. In most cases this is done before or shortly after the sod has been laid. It is the homeowner's responsibility to verify that it is okay to have a fence done. Aside from being extremely messy, you have the potential of ruining the grading if you go in to do a fence before the sod has been laid.

2. You have to make the decision on whether or not you want to do the holes yourself. My guy charges $16/hole to dig and set the holes - everything except remove the soil. For me, I can't be bothered digging holes and mixing cement. On one job last year he and his crew did 60 fence posts and 4 holes for a deck for me in less than 4 hours. He pays his crew by the hole so you'd better believe they work their a$$es off.

3. Never heard of anything as high as that. Those customers must have been drunk when they signed their contract.

5. First, I string and stake to mark the line for the holes and then use the orange paint to mark the hole locations. You get the string right out of the way to dig the holes. Then after you do the corner posts, you stake and string around them to line up the ones in the middle. You can try a laser but I think that using a string to set is still the best method. I'd advise you to use masonry string as well.

6. I get absolutely everything possible from the lumber yard. They have to be closed for me to go into HD. When you set the screw it will counter sink into the clip and post. You may have to bend the clip after but they're thin and it isn't that hard. Remember, you're building fences, not fine cabinetry - the cross pieces don't have to be 100% flush to the post. Besides you'll have a very, very hard time of leveling your top rail without using clips. Trust me, people won't notice if the rail is flush to the post, however they will notice if your top rails aren't level.

8. I use Millwork for all my wood but they aren't your area. I used Central Fairbank for one job last year and they are very contractor friendly too. The local lumber yards are generally better for a lot of reasons - I find the quality of the wood to be a lot better, the service is way better, I don't have problems returning wood (if the deliver a skid of fence boards, they can't all be good) and the delivery guys don't just drop the wood "at the curb". Also, Millwork doesn't charge delivery for orders over $750 - tell me what job you're going to do that has less then $750 worth of materials - LOL.

9. You may cut into you profits and time management by being so particular about the cement but that is entirely up to you. I have the cement 4"-6" below grade so it is covered back over with dirt and sod - no mess that way. The guy I use always mixes the cement near the curb and takes it to the holes with a wheelbarrow and they shovel/pour it into the holes.

Glad to help.
 
Excellent advice/suggestions Mike & Teetor. Your pricing is a bit off for here - probably mainly due to market prices/exchange rates for Canada.

As for sub-contracting the holes etc. vs. using an auger, the area G.L. is targeting is infamous for it's clay based soil. To tell you a short story, I was doing a deck in Brampton (G.L. knows where that is) a couple of years ago and using a two-man. Well, the auger bit got "stuck" in the first hole and after the heat from the auger dried out the clay in was pretty much cemented into the hole. It took me a whole day to dig a 6' dia. x 5' deep hole to get the damned bit out of the clay. Mr. Post Hole came the next day and finished the 16 holes in less than 2 hrs. - cement included. Needless to say, it was the last time I have used any type of auger. Also, a lot of the new homes around here have so much crap - bricks, morter, strapping, etc. buried about 6" below grade that small augers just can't get through effectively or quickly.

G.L., upgrades can add a lot to your profits and you can offer a wide variety of gates for anywhere between $150 - $500+. It's all up to you and your abilities.
 
G.L.,

Re: Post Hole guys - you may have to hunt around a bit for a good guy. When you find one, build a good relationship. It may get you priority for those "I need holes dug asap jobs". The guy I have is based in Oshawa, and no you can't get his number - LOL. Actually, I could give it to you but he doesn't go too far west or north. Him or any of the other guys I have used all have tractors. They usually need 42" - 48" clearance but if you're doing new homes it usually isn't an issue. Some guys will use small augers or even do them by hand but it will cost you more per hole. The guy that I have that does it for $16/hole includes the cement - I have to supply the post and do the clean-up. You may find some other post guys that will do them for around $35/hole including the post. You'll have to make a few calls plus Mr. Post Hole has territories set-up, making it hard to shop around with that company.

About marking the holes, Mike's idea is one good way of doing it. I do it slightly different. When I mark my holes, for one, I have to have them marked before the post guy shows. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone that will mark them. They're there to dig, etc. and get on to the next job asap. What I do is string the lines (according to the homeowner's survey - get a metric tape so you don't have to do any math). Then I mark the posts every 92"-94", or so, from each other. That way if I am off a bit it's okay. You'll beat yourself up trying for exactly 96" between each post, never mind wasting a lot of time trying. Besides I had a hard time getting my board stretcher, so you may have a hard time getting one yourself :D Also, if you're doing fences with lattice at the top you can't get lattice longer than 8' - at least I've never seen it.

If you're doing the holes youself just dig a small piece of sod out from where you are putting the hole, that way the auger won't slide or move out of position on you. All good Post Hole guys it that way.
 
GL,

My insurance company isn't in the Toronto area. I would just go to as many as you like and see what kind of rates they can give you, etc.

Re: advertising - I haven't done the hanger thing but wouldn't count it out. One thing I am planning on for the spring is getting magnets with my business card on them. So many new sobdivions in my area have metal entrance doors. It's a good way to have people hold on to them - plus they don't blow away. A good, inexpensive way when you are starting out your advertising is to hand deliver the flyers to the neighbourhoods you want to target. Go around your target neighbourhoods to hand them out on the weekends. You'll have a chance of running into people as they are going in and out. Grocery store bulletin boards are a free place to post. I like to post flyers on the group mail boxes too.

Just a few ideas for you...
 
GL,

Not that I wouldn't love the cordless, but for me when I started up I went with the PC compressor and framing nailer (PC350). It gave me the versatility because I also needed a finish nailer and brad nailer too. Fences aren't my primary focus but I'll do them to lead into deck jobs, etc. If you're doing enough fences the cost of the cells can be worked in and you'll probably be better off going cordless - you're going to have to decide for yourself. If you have the compressor/nailer, you have to fiddle around with the pressure and depth guide on your nailer so you don't go too deep with the nails. I use 2 1/4" galvanized nails and set them at an angle to avoid going too deep into the fence boards.

I still haven't decided about switching to a cordless yet this year. I've seen a few companies coming out with battery powered finish nailers. Maybe they'll be coming out with battery powered framing nailers soon? They keep coming out with more and more high-tech battery powered stuff all the time.

I try to stay away from staining/painting. I don't really enjoy it nor have a lot of time for it. It could be a good up-sell for you though i.e. offer staining while you're doing the fence, etc. I haven't even stained my own fence yet - LOL!
 
Good point Teetor. I wasn't really thinking that. The cordless don't seem extremely heavier in the store but I'm sure it's a different story after a full day using one.
 
There was a post in the tools section (I think) the other day that was showing the new Milwaukee battery powered finish nailers coming out soon. No mention of battery powered framing nailers yet - we'll have to see.

Mike's point about the compressor being less of a problem for fences as opposed to inside work is a valid one. By the time I get around to nailing the fence boards up about all that I need are my SCMS and table saw. If you plan out your set-up, you shouldn't have too many problems.

One problem I started having last fall was that my compressor was blowing the circuits on virtually every plug in the new homes I was working on. That is why I have been considering getting a cordless nailer. Running cords is the least of my problem.

Regardless of the type of nailer you use, you may still have to set the pressure and the depth guide. Also, you have to remember (and may have to remind customers) when you're building basic board-on-board fencing, etc., that you are building just that, a "fence". You're not building a fine piece of oak furniture or dining room set. If I had a customer that didn't like the depth of the nails and wanted the boards hand-nailed, the price would go up by $5-$10 per linear foot.
 
GL,

Re: your site set-up: you'll figure things out as you go along. Fencing for new homes is generally easier because you have less in your way. If you're doing tear-downs and new fences in older neighbourhoods it can be a little trickier. Every job will be a little bit different.

Re: deck piers: If I am doing a fence & deck for the same customer then I definitely have him do the post holes for the deck at the same time. If it's just a deck, then it depends on the size. Post Hole guys have a "float" or minimum charge for taking their tractor off the trailer - usually around $225-$250. As for the holes themselves, I just go down 4' and put the sonotube in the hole and pour the cement as soon as possible (if you've ever been interupted by rain and had to bale water out of holes with a cup you'll know whay I say that). I've never had a deck move on me yet. Once I even did the piers without sonotube. I know it's not code but it was my own deck and in my opinion sonotubes are a waste of money - basically a necessary evil.

My split is about 75/25 (decks to fences) but it can vary. In new subdivisions, you're likely going to get more fences. I very rarely get "just fence" jobs. If I am doing a fence it is usually in addition to a deck.

I haven't bought any of the magnetic cards yet so I can't help you there. I would suggest that you find a place that will be able to do all of the printing you are interested in getting. That way they'll have your artwork on file and they may offer you some volume discounts.
 
Good suggestion Mike.

Myself, I went with the PC C3550 for a few reasons. I wanted the flexability of the detachable controller and the portability of it being on wheels. Also, my research prior to buying it lead me to the decision to go with an oil-lube model for it's durability and the ability to run it on uneven surfaces - it can sit at a 45 deg. angle and still run great.

As for it tripping breakers, I'm inclined to believe that it has a lot to do with the homes I was working on. At two different places, it would fill up fine at start up and then when it would kick in to restore the pressure, it would trip the breaker(s). I have run it on several different circuits in my own home and never had the problem (both before and after the problems at the clients'). However, because it happened at two different places I am inclined to think that it could use a good cleaning/tune-up.

http://www.porter-cable.com/index.asp?e=547&p=4795
 
I know what you mean about the circuits. The part that has me puzzled is the fact it fills up fine at I start it up but then trips breakers when it kicks in the next time.
The best thing about my compressor is the detachable controller. I can run 50' of hose from the compressor to the controller and then another 50' from there without any loss of pressure.

An air impact wrench is already on my "to buy" list. I wasn't thinking about using it for the lag bolts though - great idea! And I've been doing them by hand all this time! Doh!
 
There's nothing wrong with your pancake compressor, it just may not be robust enough for the constant daily use you hope to put it through. When you're nailing a run of fence boards you're using the air up pretty quickly. If you want a new compressor then definitely go bigger. You could always get an extra air tank but then you're lugging around more equipment. Remember, you've got to transport and set it up every time so I wouldn't recommend getting too big of one either.

Air tools: I have the small attachments kit (hand blower, tire inflator, etc.) for cleaning sawdust, etc. off my tools. Also, I have a framing nailer, finish nailer (for railings, etc.) and a brad nailer/stapler (for making custom lattice).

Re: Bigfoot. Honestly, I wouldn't bother unless a homeowner insisted they be used and they were willing to pay the additional cost (material & labour). You've got to dig a much bigger hole and then back fill the soil, tamp it, etc. I prefer to have the sonotube in soil as undisturbed as possible.
 
Mike, if you look at the PC website for the description of the C3550 and look closely at the picture you can get an idea of what I mean. Basically, the "2-port removable console" allows "remote air regulation and higher pressure closer to the job site.", disconnects from the compressor. You can then run an air hose from the compressor to the console and then another hose from the console to your tool. The console even has a hole in the metal portion of it that allows you to hang it off a post, etc.

I'm definitely going getting an impact wrench and an impact grade deep socket set before spring. I was pricing combo sets with an impact wrench (Campbell Hausfield and another one I can't remember the name of now). What brand do you use/recommend?

Agree with you on the "bigfoot". A 4' deep hole with a little extra concrete at the bottom isn't going anywhere.
 
Mike,

If the specs are half decent on the craftsman impact drill I'll probably get both the drill and the sockets at Sears - my girlfriend gets an employee discount (currently 15% but going up to 25% in the near future). That is unless I find the one Chris posted for a good price - I do love a good cordless tool!!! I'm not using on a daily basis but the idea of having one and not having to set lag bolts and tapcons with a rachet REALLY appeals to me.

I have both a 3/8" & 1/2" 19.2V Craftsman drills (see "discount" above). The 3/8" has done well by me for 2 years now. The 1/2" was a new purchase late last year. Re: my post in the Tools forum, I am shopping around for the stand up extension for this year.

Chris,

Thanks for the link.
 
I work alone for the most part (other than sub-contracting the posts/cement, of course).

Mike, does your dog ever get mixed up and lick your tools and fetch himself??? :D
 
Decks Unlimited said:
Can Decks Etc. give me some info on permits? Ive just started on my own in the Durham Region but I've been building here for years with Deck Depot. Could use some friends outside the shop and you seem really helpful. Thanx.
I'm not so sure how much help I want to give competition within my own area :confused: but I'm a nice guy so I'll help out. You don't say what area of Durham you're in but for me I found everything I needed re: permits by going to the Town of Ajax website - www.townofajax.com. Different parts of Durham have slightly different forms.

Since, you are in my area, perhaps we could meet up and talk shop over a beer or two sometime?
 
Teetorbilt said:
With a smaller compressor you can 'fool the tool' if you have the volume. As you have discovered, a 0.6 cu ft reservoir won't fool much.
I'm thinking you have me confused with the new guy Decks Unlimited. He was the one complaining about his compressor/impact wrench not driving the lag bolts in enough.

I'm just the guy contemplating getting one. :D
 
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