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Any Fencing Contractors out there?

15K views 67 replies 8 participants last post by  DecksEtc 
#1 ·
Hi folks - thanks for the valuable insight this board offers.

I am looking to launch a fencing (PT and cedar, possibly composite) and possibly deck business this spring. Am hoping there are some contractors out there, either who specialize in fencing or who do it along with other services.

My questions relate mostly to advertising, pricing and general tips on improving efficiency and providing the best level of quality.

1. If you're in a cold climate, when do you typically start to advertise?
2. Do you sub out the post holes or do them yourself?
3. If you do #2 yourself, what type of equipment (two-man auger, tractor, skid-steer, mini skid-steer)?
4. Are there typical markups for getting a final per foot price after calculating what your cost is (materials and an estimate for your labour)?
5. Old-fashioned string and stakes for levelling or anything fancy like laser levels?
6. Do you use fence brackets for rails or just toenail?
7. How popular are composite products or vinyl vs. the traditional PT or cedar approach?
8. Are lumber yards preferred over places like Home Depot or Loews?
9. Do you offer any incentives for multiple neighbours who all want a fence?
10. Concrete mixer and wheelbarrow with bagged ready-mix or ready-mix truck at curb and then wheelbarrow to each hole?
11. Any other general tips/tricks/guidance for someone new to the game?

I realize that's a pretty long list - I have really been trying to research this very well before taking the plunge. Hoping I can get some great advice from you guys (Grumpy and Mike are two I hope can take a minute to share their wisdom!)

Cheers and thanks again for the great resource this board is! :)
GL
 
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Discussion starter · #4 ·
Thanks DecksEtc.

Thank you thank you Decks etc. for the thorough reply -- I really appreciate it. You made some great points and provided some helpful advice that's for sure.

1. It hadn't occurred to me about bonuses and tax returns so that is an even bigger incentive to get the word out there -- I'm in YorkRegion so not that close to you but still definitely in the same boat re: snow melt and wanting that to happen sooner rather than later. As far as my advertising goes I am going to try and target a new subdivision very close to my house where they have already had the grass put in but no fences -- any guidance there? Would a builder allow a fence pre-grass (someone told me they'd be upset given they'd have to go from house to house to lay their sod vs. doing one whole run) -- I'm talking here about ~ 2500 sq. ft houses on 37, 45 x 80 lots for the most part (not postage stamp but not huge either). So that's where I will distribute some flyers and do some door-to-door as follow-up. Local paper is an option too but there are several ads along those lines already. What do you do? Paper, flyers, mail, those coupon packs?

2. I have been researching mini skid-steers (Eg. Toro Dingo) as an efficient and quick way to do holes. If you haven't seen them you should check them out as they're pretty neat and at their price point not totally out of reach. They come with attachments (auger, cement bowl) that would greatly reduce amount of labour required. There are several post-hole-only guys around too which sounds like what you're doing. From what I've seen, they're anywhere from $6-12 per hole and some charge a minimum. I assume you have no probs with a Kubota fitting in, but I'm not sure it would be the same where I am (guess that depends on whether the homeowner has installed a gate between them and their neighbour yet). So given how much you charge out, I assume the expense to bring someone in to do the holes is minimal? How much could you boost your margin by doing it yourself?

3. $21 and $23 seems a bit low for here although when I got estimates before they ranged from $23 on the low end to $42 at the top, some were $35, some were $28. That was 5' board, 1' lattice, 4x4 post (PT). I was surprised at the range - 42 minus 23 is 19, so 100ft. difference would be almost $2,000 - that's a big difference in my opinion. I wondered what the $42 guys were going to offer to offset that? Bury gold inside the posts? :)

5. Am sure you've developed some good techniques for the string and stake method as have I so will probably just stick to that -- laser would be nice but that'll be down the road. I just find the string that get in the way while you're doing the augering and setting.

6. Screws eh..interesting -- 2" deck screws for brackets to posts? Now would you get those at HD or also in bulk from your lumber guy? I found the head of the screw was protruding from the face of the bracket and interfered a tiny bit when sliding in the rail - just a minor thing though and the advantages to being able to remove easily are definitely good.

8. Enuff said on HD and lumber -- couldn't agree more. Have made the mistake and learned dearly. Plus I actually had to go *in* to order it - they couldn't do it over the phone. Central Fairbanks is a big one in GTA - who do you use? Smaller local guy? Do you find the product itself is of a better quality or just more comfortable being able to perhaps deal with the same guy over and over and also supporting the smaller outfits vs. the large chain?

9. Concrete truck I pretty much ruled out but just wanted to throw it out there in case I was missing something. That mini skid I mentioned has a cement bowl attachment which you can drive right up to your hole. The 'flighting' inside will make the cement pour out when the bowl is reversed. The mixers I've rented let you tip pretty close to the hole, but there's a lot of muscle needed to get it in the right spot I found. I am also a bit of a perfectionist and want minimal mess around the hole. I ultimately would like a way to have some type of small pump and hose setup where I can direct the cement exactly where I want it to go via say a 4" wide hose or pipe (yeah I sound crazy now don't I :) ). Many have told me that's overkill for fence posts so don't feel bad to do the same!

Again, can't thank you enough for the friendly advice.
I noted you chose to go with GarStruc com -- how is that working out?

Take care & stay warm, GL.
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
Can I thank you guys enough?

Mike/Teetor and TG, I really really appreciate it. The advice will be invaluable as I get things off the ground. Am actually in the process of getting logos and that kind of thing worked up by a local graphic design house -- and also thinking about insurance, being bonded and some of the legalities. Any advice there would also be helpful. I guess it's one thing knowing how to do the actual work, but to be properly 'covered' from a legal standpoint is another thing altogether - right? Or am I placing too much focus on that stuff?

Mike, I had a chuckle at the 6-year olds doing the holes. I can see the ad now: "Fencing workers needed - must like SpongeBob Squarepants and have own plastic shovel!" :)

So where do I send the beer? Up here it's 6% too! :cheesygri
Although after the exchange it's only 4!

TG -- you've had no probs with Mr. Post Hole or Post Hole Guys? Have all the outfits you've used had a tractor and auger bit off the back? None have used a mini-skid as I described before? But you supply the cement and posts right? And you said $16/hole I think. Nasty story on the auger. I used one of those Compac rental jobbies from HD -- at the time I didn't know too much and thought that downward pressure would help vs. letting it do the work and pulling it out every so often and cleaning the mud off -- needless to say it took me about 6 hours for the first 3 holes and about 4 hours for the remaining 14 - nothing like learning as you go. Luckily that was at my in-laws place so I didn't look dumb in front of a customer. There are so many things I learned that I'll use on my upcoming jobs.

Oh one thing I wanted to ask -- how are you ensuring that you get 8' spacing so you're not cutting your rails -- I devised a plan for a jig. Two small sections of 4x4 with a 1x dadoed in, exactly 8' apart. The 4x4s are spiked on the end so they will make good indents in the ground before I auger the hole. I was finding that even though I plumbed down from my stringline, by the time the auger moved around at the start of the hole I was still anywhere from 1 to 4" off between openings... the easy ones were those that ended up less than 96", but a couple were more so I was either using 10 footers for rails and cutting down or cutting down an 8 footer a bit to add a sizable enough piece on the end (I know, not very graceful right). How have you handled that situation? Do you always try to make it shorter and just suck up the trimming part?

Again, thanks to all.
Hope to hear from you guys again soon.
Cheers, GL.
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
Thanks again

Thanks guys for all the input.

I'll check the business section for my questions related to those issues.


But TG, can you recommend an insurance company (that may have an office in my area) that you've found good for business and liability insurance? Also, I assume you're bonded? Is that a long and/or difficult process?

And one other quick question re: advertising, have you used door hangers or are you just leaving flyers wedged between the front door or screen door?

Cheers, GL
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
Terry

Terry, thanks again. The metal biz cards is a great idea -- I'd say the bulk of the doors around here are typically metal so it would be perfect. And yes, I think today might have been a good guy with the sun shining and people feeling like spring is in sight. Still need to get my flyer finished up though. Great ideas for me... thanks.

Back to some technical questions, do you use staples or nails in your nail gun for attaching boards? I used a Porter Cable framing nailer with 2" galvanized nails for the job I did last summer. Leaves quite a big dent in the wood though - I had heard it would do this but didn't think they'd be that big. The unit is pretty big and after 2 hours with it it gets really heavy. It was an air model too so the hose was in the way a lot. I've looked at the Paslode cordless ones and they're pretty pricey and those fuel cells are $8 a pop.
Saw a fence job in the neighborhood where they used staples...much less noticeable. What nail gun do you have and staples or nails?

Also, do you ever offer staining or painting? Seems like most outfits don't but am curious.

I also thought about giving a free plant hanger (maybe a nicer cedar one or the wrought iron kind) if a customer books with me before a certain date -- you ever tried anything like that?

Thanks, GL.
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
PipeGuy

Good point, they're not all that much more the cordless when you consider the freedom you get. I guess my point was that there is the added expense of getting the fuel cells that won't go away. But again, they do shoot a lot of nails on the one cell so the per nail cost is pretty small. I think I'd splurge and go with the cordless.

What Paslode do you have?
 
Discussion starter · #23 ·
DeWalt XBR 18V cordless nailer

I spotted one of these at Home Depot - it was a finish nailer but it made me wonder if there either is or will be a framing nailer that can be used with the XBR 18V batteries. The weight was pretty decent, I had it one hand and the Paslode in the other and they seemed about the same.

Mike, you make a good point about the straight plane of a fence vs. up/down as you'd be on a building site. I guess I found the cord was in the way of other things I had around and having not worked with them that much, messing with the pressure and depth gauge took a little bit of extra time.

GL
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
Fencing

Terry - yeah you're right - getting things put away and leaving less out when you're at the boards stage will get around any issues of tripping over stuff - good point. And you're right, the expectation has to be set properly re: how 'perfect' the fence will be. I'm coming at it with a definite zest to get it looking the best I can but realize everything won't always be perfect or sometimes not even close to.

On the subject of your main focus, decks, do you get the post hole guys to do the holes for your sonotubes when you're building decks? Have you experimented with the footing tube or 'Bigfoot' vs. just a straight pour? If you're doing a hole are you always trying to splay out the bottom for a larger footing? Are you leaving that to cure and then pouring the column?

What is your split in terms of decks/fences -- sounds like you're mostly decking but just curious? Oh and do you remember how much you paid for the magnetic business cards?
 
Discussion starter · #31 ·
Impact wrench

Mike, that is a really good thing, using an impact wrench for lag bolts -- never even thought about it. I was peeking through the Craftsman (Sears) 2005 Tool catalogue and saw several.

I have the pancake compressor that came with a finish nailer and it's the one I used last year when I used the PC framing nailer for fence boards and it worked fine -- was restoring pressure a lot but it definitely did the job.

So you're saying an impact wrench would be better off with a unit bigger than the pancake? Checking the compressor section on the PC site, after the 4 and 6 gal. ones are 15, 20, 25, 60 & 80.

http://www.porter-cable.com/index.asp?e=547&p=2580

I guess it would come down to what your budget could allow right?

So if I'm going to fork out some dough on new equipment, I think you guys would suggest a better compressor and an air nailer vs. a cordless framing nailer? That way I could use the impact wrench with the compressor as you mentioned...are there other air tools you're using (either of you) or that you think would come in handy for fencing and possibly decks?

TG-so you think the Bigfoot is overkill for a deck? (www.bigfootsystems.com)

Thanks again to you both for all the helpful info. :Thumbs:
 
Discussion starter · #48 ·
Scrubbs as fencing guys!

Papakap - I definitely believe you and can see where you're coming from. So you think that the low wages the typical fence builder pays does not attract the right calibre of worker. Or, is it that the work is tough and doesn't necessarily need a lot of know-how?

Mike/TG/Teetor--what is your take on what Papa describes? Do you agree that if you pay low you're gonna get unreliable workers? Are there other ways to ensure you get better labour? My thinking was that I could get a summer student who didn't mind a little hard work and had some brainpower to boot. It'd be nice if they took some pride in their work and were not just out to make some extra money to pay for tuition. I'd really like a guy that was taking some sort of trade in school that wanted a way to get into the business, starting with something like decks or fences on the way to perhaps building complete homes.

Cheers everyone, GL.
 
Discussion starter · #49 ·
Mike/TG/Teetor--what is your take on what Papa describes? Do you agree that if you pay low you're gonna get unreliable workers? Are there other ways to ensure you get better labour? My thinking was that I could get a summer student who didn't mind a little hard work and had some brainpower to boot. It'd be nice if they took some pride in their work and were not just out to make some extra money to pay for tuition. I'd really like a guy that was taking some sort of trade in school that wanted a way to get into the business, starting with something like decks or fences on the way to perhaps building complete homes.
No comments guys? Is it too off-topic for this post perhaps?
 
Discussion starter · #52 ·
Good help is hard to find

Mike/Teetor - thanks for the input. I think you're completely right.

Are you guys both a one-man show? If you need help how are you filling that requirement?
 
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