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Hi folks - thanks for the valuable insight this board offers.

I am looking to launch a fencing (PT and cedar, possibly composite) and possibly deck business this spring. Am hoping there are some contractors out there, either who specialize in fencing or who do it along with other services.

My questions relate mostly to advertising, pricing and general tips on improving efficiency and providing the best level of quality.

1. If you're in a cold climate, when do you typically start to advertise?
2. Do you sub out the post holes or do them yourself?
3. If you do #2 yourself, what type of equipment (two-man auger, tractor, skid-steer, mini skid-steer)?
4. Are there typical markups for getting a final per foot price after calculating what your cost is (materials and an estimate for your labour)?
5. Old-fashioned string and stakes for levelling or anything fancy like laser levels?
6. Do you use fence brackets for rails or just toenail?
7. How popular are composite products or vinyl vs. the traditional PT or cedar approach?
8. Are lumber yards preferred over places like Home Depot or Loews?
9. Do you offer any incentives for multiple neighbours who all want a fence?
10. Concrete mixer and wheelbarrow with bagged ready-mix or ready-mix truck at curb and then wheelbarrow to each hole?
11. Any other general tips/tricks/guidance for someone new to the game?

I realize that's a pretty long list - I have really been trying to research this very well before taking the plunge. Hoping I can get some great advice from you guys (Grumpy and Mike are two I hope can take a minute to share their wisdom!)

Cheers and thanks again for the great resource this board is! :)
GL
 

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#2 Is there subs who do the post hole digging exclusively??? lol
#3 Around here a couple of guys could hand dig with post hole shovels. If the ground if tuff I would invest in a auger or a bobcat with auger attachment.
#4 Since the average homeowner usually knows there way around a homedepot. I wouldn't get lumber from them. Suppliers will give discounts and the more you business you do with them the better they are. This is were you can mark up and still be below any home depot/lowes. Same with fastener suppliers less than a pallet of nails a month and they don't like you. A pallet month or more and you have deep discounts.
#5 do you have the money for laser transits? If yes why not.
#8 read 4
#9 this is up to you and the incentive could be classified as advertising and deductable
#10 How much concrete do you need for a truck with a three yard minium plus wait time? Probably a mixer and wheelbarrow
 

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1. I have started advertising now and will increasing my advertising the closer we get to March/April. You don’t say what area of Ontario you are in but for me, I always hope for the snow to melt sooner than later. People start receiving year end performance bonuses and income tax refunds soon and hopefully they will be thinking about how to spend it on a deck or fence soon.
2. I avoid digging holes at all costs. So, as long as my post-hole guy can get access (he needs 42” clearance), I have him do them with his Kuboto tractor and auger. I don’t have the time to waste digging holes and mixing cement. My guy gives me an excellent price too.
3. If I do have to do them myself, I rent either a one-man or two-man auger – depending, of course, on whether I have a helper available.
4. When it comes to cost it depends greatly on what type of fencing you are doing. In my area the going rate for 6’ board-on-board fencing without lattice is around $21/foot and 6’ board-on-board fencing with lattice is about 23’/foot. You’ll need to find out what the going rate is for your area and adjust accordingly.
5. My post guy digs, levels, mixes the cement and set’s the posts. If I do it myself I just use stakes, string, post level and my eye.
6. I always use fence brackets and screws – it makes it easy should a customer ever need to remove a section. I air nail the fence boards but I use screws everywhere else.
7. I haven’t had much call for composites. It would depend on your area, I guess.
8. I never, never, never, ever get wood from HD. Did I say never enough? If I’m desperate, I’ll settle for Rona but my main supplier is a local lumber yard. They give me 10% of my purchases back in “points”, and the points don’t take long to add up!
9. I will reduce my price by $1/foot if there are more than 3 houses.
10. Unless you have a lot of posts, it isn’t very economical to order a truck. Again, it depends greatly on your area and costs. That’s something you’ll have to do the math on.
11. Other advice….well, that’s a bit of a general question to answer with specific answers. Read through the posts here, the business ones have a lot of posts along the lines of this topic. Be careful not to under price yourself and ensure you’re making enough money on each job. You’re running a business now, not a charity.

By the way, I should have asked first, you’re not in my area, are you?

Good luck!
 

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Thanks DecksEtc.

Thank you thank you Decks etc. for the thorough reply -- I really appreciate it. You made some great points and provided some helpful advice that's for sure.

1. It hadn't occurred to me about bonuses and tax returns so that is an even bigger incentive to get the word out there -- I'm in YorkRegion so not that close to you but still definitely in the same boat re: snow melt and wanting that to happen sooner rather than later. As far as my advertising goes I am going to try and target a new subdivision very close to my house where they have already had the grass put in but no fences -- any guidance there? Would a builder allow a fence pre-grass (someone told me they'd be upset given they'd have to go from house to house to lay their sod vs. doing one whole run) -- I'm talking here about ~ 2500 sq. ft houses on 37, 45 x 80 lots for the most part (not postage stamp but not huge either). So that's where I will distribute some flyers and do some door-to-door as follow-up. Local paper is an option too but there are several ads along those lines already. What do you do? Paper, flyers, mail, those coupon packs?

2. I have been researching mini skid-steers (Eg. Toro Dingo) as an efficient and quick way to do holes. If you haven't seen them you should check them out as they're pretty neat and at their price point not totally out of reach. They come with attachments (auger, cement bowl) that would greatly reduce amount of labour required. There are several post-hole-only guys around too which sounds like what you're doing. From what I've seen, they're anywhere from $6-12 per hole and some charge a minimum. I assume you have no probs with a Kubota fitting in, but I'm not sure it would be the same where I am (guess that depends on whether the homeowner has installed a gate between them and their neighbour yet). So given how much you charge out, I assume the expense to bring someone in to do the holes is minimal? How much could you boost your margin by doing it yourself?

3. $21 and $23 seems a bit low for here although when I got estimates before they ranged from $23 on the low end to $42 at the top, some were $35, some were $28. That was 5' board, 1' lattice, 4x4 post (PT). I was surprised at the range - 42 minus 23 is 19, so 100ft. difference would be almost $2,000 - that's a big difference in my opinion. I wondered what the $42 guys were going to offer to offset that? Bury gold inside the posts? :)

5. Am sure you've developed some good techniques for the string and stake method as have I so will probably just stick to that -- laser would be nice but that'll be down the road. I just find the string that get in the way while you're doing the augering and setting.

6. Screws eh..interesting -- 2" deck screws for brackets to posts? Now would you get those at HD or also in bulk from your lumber guy? I found the head of the screw was protruding from the face of the bracket and interfered a tiny bit when sliding in the rail - just a minor thing though and the advantages to being able to remove easily are definitely good.

8. Enuff said on HD and lumber -- couldn't agree more. Have made the mistake and learned dearly. Plus I actually had to go *in* to order it - they couldn't do it over the phone. Central Fairbanks is a big one in GTA - who do you use? Smaller local guy? Do you find the product itself is of a better quality or just more comfortable being able to perhaps deal with the same guy over and over and also supporting the smaller outfits vs. the large chain?

9. Concrete truck I pretty much ruled out but just wanted to throw it out there in case I was missing something. That mini skid I mentioned has a cement bowl attachment which you can drive right up to your hole. The 'flighting' inside will make the cement pour out when the bowl is reversed. The mixers I've rented let you tip pretty close to the hole, but there's a lot of muscle needed to get it in the right spot I found. I am also a bit of a perfectionist and want minimal mess around the hole. I ultimately would like a way to have some type of small pump and hose setup where I can direct the cement exactly where I want it to go via say a 4" wide hose or pipe (yeah I sound crazy now don't I :) ). Many have told me that's overkill for fence posts so don't feel bad to do the same!

Again, can't thank you enough for the friendly advice.
I noted you chose to go with GarStruc com -- how is that working out?

Take care & stay warm, GL.
 

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1. Targeting new subdivisions is a good place to start. You'll want to go after them before the larger companies get in there. Focus on your being local and your attention to detail, etc. When it comes to grass, etc. it really isn't up to the builder, it's up to the city. What I mean is that the homeowner needs to have received their grading clearance from the city before installing a fence. I don't mean a permit. Grading clearance means the city has checked the grading and approved it for the builder. In most cases this is done before or shortly after the sod has been laid. It is the homeowner's responsibility to verify that it is okay to have a fence done. Aside from being extremely messy, you have the potential of ruining the grading if you go in to do a fence before the sod has been laid.

2. You have to make the decision on whether or not you want to do the holes yourself. My guy charges $16/hole to dig and set the holes - everything except remove the soil. For me, I can't be bothered digging holes and mixing cement. On one job last year he and his crew did 60 fence posts and 4 holes for a deck for me in less than 4 hours. He pays his crew by the hole so you'd better believe they work their a$$es off.

3. Never heard of anything as high as that. Those customers must have been drunk when they signed their contract.

5. First, I string and stake to mark the line for the holes and then use the orange paint to mark the hole locations. You get the string right out of the way to dig the holes. Then after you do the corner posts, you stake and string around them to line up the ones in the middle. You can try a laser but I think that using a string to set is still the best method. I'd advise you to use masonry string as well.

6. I get absolutely everything possible from the lumber yard. They have to be closed for me to go into HD. When you set the screw it will counter sink into the clip and post. You may have to bend the clip after but they're thin and it isn't that hard. Remember, you're building fences, not fine cabinetry - the cross pieces don't have to be 100% flush to the post. Besides you'll have a very, very hard time of leveling your top rail without using clips. Trust me, people won't notice if the rail is flush to the post, however they will notice if your top rails aren't level.

8. I use Millwork for all my wood but they aren't your area. I used Central Fairbank for one job last year and they are very contractor friendly too. The local lumber yards are generally better for a lot of reasons - I find the quality of the wood to be a lot better, the service is way better, I don't have problems returning wood (if the deliver a skid of fence boards, they can't all be good) and the delivery guys don't just drop the wood "at the curb". Also, Millwork doesn't charge delivery for orders over $750 - tell me what job you're going to do that has less then $750 worth of materials - LOL.

9. You may cut into you profits and time management by being so particular about the cement but that is entirely up to you. I have the cement 4"-6" below grade so it is covered back over with dirt and sod - no mess that way. The guy I use always mixes the cement near the curb and takes it to the holes with a wheelbarrow and they shovel/pour it into the holes.

Glad to help.
 

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You being in Canada and me being in Colorado is probably going to make things a bit diffrent, but I will tell you based on where I am at.

As far as holes go, you are probably in sandy soil aren't you? You could probably hire a couple of 6 year olds with sand box shovels to dig easier than it is here. We just about need dynamite to dig post holes because of our clay based soils! If your soil is easy to dig, a 2 man auger would be ridiculously easy and make short work out of digging the holes. It will come down to economics. Is it cheaper to hire whomever you can to come in and dig or is it cheaper to pay your own labor or crews labor? I would do whatever makes sense.

I couldn't see the justification with a laser or transit. A string level is quick and more than accurate for fencing.

Out here, everybody screws the rails to the posts.

Out here composites are not very popular. Probably less than 5% of the market. The market is dominated by cedar privacy picket fencing. Rails with pickets make up at least 70% of the cedar picket privacy fencing, with the other 30% made up of fancy designs using cedar, such as toppings capping and suchs. The 2nd most popular would be cedar split 3 rail. You see very little composite because it doesn't really fit in with the Colorado lifestyle or rugged outdoor look that dominates the state nor does it fit in with alot of HOAs out here. You would be more likely to see white vinyl 3 rail fencing around a gentleman ranch out here because of the low maintenance.

Home Depot and Lowes out here offers inferior cedar products. I don't know how much you know about cedar grading, but the big boxes out here offer the lowest grade, and it shows by the following year as the fence falls apart, the knots fall out and the fence looks 10 years old. It doesn't take much to show a homeowner the difference between that DIYer stuff HD sells and what a quality picket is and what they are going to get out of it.


I wouldn't offer an incentive unless it was the only way to get the work. However, there is economy of scale at work if you have 3 houses to do that are within a stones throw of each other. I would rather use that economy of scale as additional profit if possible, but if you wouldn't see the work without doing it, why not? You are still making the same money by doing the 3 at once at a reduce rate as doing 3 spread out at a higher price.

As for concrete and posts, since technically concreting the posts isn't ideal anyways- for post holes for fences the stuff you pour in the ground dry and add water is fine. If you want to mix it first either by portable mixer or by hand depending on the size of the job why not? Out here I have access to companies that will deliver and mix right out of the truck, they have a one yard minimum. They pull up to the curp and mix as it comes out of the truck and pour into your wheel barrow. Get one of those needle nosed wheel barrows if you can find one so you can pour accurately into the hole, the last thing you want to do is shovel it in.

As for things to think about to differentiate yourself or add profit.

I would think about upgrades for additional costs and profits or to set you apart from the competition - to stainless steel nails to avoid the dark tannin streaks that you see on cedar. Upgrades to all screwed pickets on privacy fences - using autofeed screw guns of course. Upgrade to gravel set posts instead of cement for longer lasting posts. Upgrades to steel posts -out here wind is the fence killer, once a fence starts moving back and forth from wind every winter the post gets weaker and weaker, combine that with a little rot and hello premature fence failure. Steel posts eliminate that and are easier to work with to boot. Upgrades to staining your fences. Get creative with your gates. Offering unique gate designs can set you apart. Using metal gate framing kits and learning how to set hinges that don't fail over time will set you apart. Around here a fence is usually as weak as its gate and few people know how to build strong gates.
 

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Today I went over my fencing estimates and, due to this topic, averaged them.
Six local companies averaged out to $16.60 per ft. for 400 ft. + (1) 10 ft gate and (2) 36 in. gates. Yard is not exactly level with a few humps along the line. The fence is concealed stringer shadowbox, as opposed to panels nailed to posts. It is also to Miami-Dade High Velocity code with posts at 4 ft for a 6 ft. fence. Two sides have a couple of root systems to deal with and the back will encounter roots with almost every hole.
 

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Excellent advice/suggestions Mike & Teetor. Your pricing is a bit off for here - probably mainly due to market prices/exchange rates for Canada.

As for sub-contracting the holes etc. vs. using an auger, the area G.L. is targeting is infamous for it's clay based soil. To tell you a short story, I was doing a deck in Brampton (G.L. knows where that is) a couple of years ago and using a two-man. Well, the auger bit got "stuck" in the first hole and after the heat from the auger dried out the clay in was pretty much cemented into the hole. It took me a whole day to dig a 6' dia. x 5' deep hole to get the damned bit out of the clay. Mr. Post Hole came the next day and finished the 16 holes in less than 2 hrs. - cement included. Needless to say, it was the last time I have used any type of auger. Also, a lot of the new homes around here have so much crap - bricks, morter, strapping, etc. buried about 6" below grade that small augers just can't get through effectively or quickly.

G.L., upgrades can add a lot to your profits and you can offer a wide variety of gates for anywhere between $150 - $500+. It's all up to you and your abilities.
 

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Can I thank you guys enough?

Mike/Teetor and TG, I really really appreciate it. The advice will be invaluable as I get things off the ground. Am actually in the process of getting logos and that kind of thing worked up by a local graphic design house -- and also thinking about insurance, being bonded and some of the legalities. Any advice there would also be helpful. I guess it's one thing knowing how to do the actual work, but to be properly 'covered' from a legal standpoint is another thing altogether - right? Or am I placing too much focus on that stuff?

Mike, I had a chuckle at the 6-year olds doing the holes. I can see the ad now: "Fencing workers needed - must like SpongeBob Squarepants and have own plastic shovel!" :)

So where do I send the beer? Up here it's 6% too! :cheesygri
Although after the exchange it's only 4!

TG -- you've had no probs with Mr. Post Hole or Post Hole Guys? Have all the outfits you've used had a tractor and auger bit off the back? None have used a mini-skid as I described before? But you supply the cement and posts right? And you said $16/hole I think. Nasty story on the auger. I used one of those Compac rental jobbies from HD -- at the time I didn't know too much and thought that downward pressure would help vs. letting it do the work and pulling it out every so often and cleaning the mud off -- needless to say it took me about 6 hours for the first 3 holes and about 4 hours for the remaining 14 - nothing like learning as you go. Luckily that was at my in-laws place so I didn't look dumb in front of a customer. There are so many things I learned that I'll use on my upcoming jobs.

Oh one thing I wanted to ask -- how are you ensuring that you get 8' spacing so you're not cutting your rails -- I devised a plan for a jig. Two small sections of 4x4 with a 1x dadoed in, exactly 8' apart. The 4x4s are spiked on the end so they will make good indents in the ground before I auger the hole. I was finding that even though I plumbed down from my stringline, by the time the auger moved around at the start of the hole I was still anywhere from 1 to 4" off between openings... the easy ones were those that ended up less than 96", but a couple were more so I was either using 10 footers for rails and cutting down or cutting down an 8 footer a bit to add a sizable enough piece on the end (I know, not very graceful right). How have you handled that situation? Do you always try to make it shorter and just suck up the trimming part?

Again, thanks to all.
Hope to hear from you guys again soon.
Cheers, GL.
 

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As far as getting your holes spaced right: if you are measuring off each consecutive post to the next as you dig you are going to get off, but if you stretch a line and plumb down and mark all the holes at once before you dig that helps with one hole being off doesn't throw all the rest off. The extra room around the post should allow for moving a post this way or that. At least that is what I have found. If you do split rail you basically have to assemble the fence one section at a time anyways since the rails lock into each post.
 

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G.L.,

Re: Post Hole guys - you may have to hunt around a bit for a good guy. When you find one, build a good relationship. It may get you priority for those "I need holes dug asap jobs". The guy I have is based in Oshawa, and no you can't get his number - LOL. Actually, I could give it to you but he doesn't go too far west or north. Him or any of the other guys I have used all have tractors. They usually need 42" - 48" clearance but if you're doing new homes it usually isn't an issue. Some guys will use small augers or even do them by hand but it will cost you more per hole. The guy that I have that does it for $16/hole includes the cement - I have to supply the post and do the clean-up. You may find some other post guys that will do them for around $35/hole including the post. You'll have to make a few calls plus Mr. Post Hole has territories set-up, making it hard to shop around with that company.

About marking the holes, Mike's idea is one good way of doing it. I do it slightly different. When I mark my holes, for one, I have to have them marked before the post guy shows. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone that will mark them. They're there to dig, etc. and get on to the next job asap. What I do is string the lines (according to the homeowner's survey - get a metric tape so you don't have to do any math). Then I mark the posts every 92"-94", or so, from each other. That way if I am off a bit it's okay. You'll beat yourself up trying for exactly 96" between each post, never mind wasting a lot of time trying. Besides I had a hard time getting my board stretcher, so you may have a hard time getting one yourself :D Also, if you're doing fences with lattice at the top you can't get lattice longer than 8' - at least I've never seen it.

If you're doing the holes youself just dig a small piece of sod out from where you are putting the hole, that way the auger won't slide or move out of position on you. All good Post Hole guys it that way.
 

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Thanks again

Thanks guys for all the input.

I'll check the business section for my questions related to those issues.


But TG, can you recommend an insurance company (that may have an office in my area) that you've found good for business and liability insurance? Also, I assume you're bonded? Is that a long and/or difficult process?

And one other quick question re: advertising, have you used door hangers or are you just leaving flyers wedged between the front door or screen door?

Cheers, GL
 

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GL,

My insurance company isn't in the Toronto area. I would just go to as many as you like and see what kind of rates they can give you, etc.

Re: advertising - I haven't done the hanger thing but wouldn't count it out. One thing I am planning on for the spring is getting magnets with my business card on them. So many new sobdivions in my area have metal entrance doors. It's a good way to have people hold on to them - plus they don't blow away. A good, inexpensive way when you are starting out your advertising is to hand deliver the flyers to the neighbourhoods you want to target. Go around your target neighbourhoods to hand them out on the weekends. You'll have a chance of running into people as they are going in and out. Grocery store bulletin boards are a free place to post. I like to post flyers on the group mail boxes too.

Just a few ideas for you...
 

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Terry

Terry, thanks again. The metal biz cards is a great idea -- I'd say the bulk of the doors around here are typically metal so it would be perfect. And yes, I think today might have been a good guy with the sun shining and people feeling like spring is in sight. Still need to get my flyer finished up though. Great ideas for me... thanks.

Back to some technical questions, do you use staples or nails in your nail gun for attaching boards? I used a Porter Cable framing nailer with 2" galvanized nails for the job I did last summer. Leaves quite a big dent in the wood though - I had heard it would do this but didn't think they'd be that big. The unit is pretty big and after 2 hours with it it gets really heavy. It was an air model too so the hose was in the way a lot. I've looked at the Paslode cordless ones and they're pretty pricey and those fuel cells are $8 a pop.
Saw a fence job in the neighborhood where they used staples...much less noticeable. What nail gun do you have and staples or nails?

Also, do you ever offer staining or painting? Seems like most outfits don't but am curious.

I also thought about giving a free plant hanger (maybe a nicer cedar one or the wrought iron kind) if a customer books with me before a certain date -- you ever tried anything like that?

Thanks, GL.
 

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G.L. In Ont said:
I've looked at the Paslode cordless ones and they're pretty pricey and those fuel cells are $8 a pop.
What - are they $100 more? It'll drive about 1200 nails with a fuel cell. That's about 11# of 8d nails or 17# of 10d nails. How long does it take you to set up and knock down the compressor on a job? How 'bout dragging the hose all around the yard? Gasoline? If the cycle time on the Paslode is slow that would definetly be an issue but to me, at first blush, for fencing I'd think the cordless would be the BOMB.
Used my Paslode for 90 minutes this week in the snow. It worked great.
 

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PipeGuy

Good point, they're not all that much more the cordless when you consider the freedom you get. I guess my point was that there is the added expense of getting the fuel cells that won't go away. But again, they do shoot a lot of nails on the one cell so the per nail cost is pretty small. I think I'd splurge and go with the cordless.

What Paslode do you have?
 

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G.L. In Ont said:
What Paslode do you have?


http://www.paslode.com/products/tool_catalog/IMCT.html

Keep in mind I'm not a hammer slinger by trade. We use it strictly as a 'utility' tool and do not use it daily. When we do have to nail something together it's usually an odd piece of formwork, some temporary bracing or a makeshift fence. For me, it's maddening to watch a couple of guys who aren't carpenters struggle to put together a handful of 2x4's - especially when the process is holding up a $600/hr operation. The same guys can take the cordless Paslode and get through it with a reasonable amount of ease.
 

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GL,

Not that I wouldn't love the cordless, but for me when I started up I went with the PC compressor and framing nailer (PC350). It gave me the versatility because I also needed a finish nailer and brad nailer too. Fences aren't my primary focus but I'll do them to lead into deck jobs, etc. If you're doing enough fences the cost of the cells can be worked in and you'll probably be better off going cordless - you're going to have to decide for yourself. If you have the compressor/nailer, you have to fiddle around with the pressure and depth guide on your nailer so you don't go too deep with the nails. I use 2 1/4" galvanized nails and set them at an angle to avoid going too deep into the fence boards.

I still haven't decided about switching to a cordless yet this year. I've seen a few companies coming out with battery powered finish nailers. Maybe they'll be coming out with battery powered framing nailers soon? They keep coming out with more and more high-tech battery powered stuff all the time.

I try to stay away from staining/painting. I don't really enjoy it nor have a lot of time for it. It could be a good up-sell for you though i.e. offer staining while you're doing the fence, etc. I haven't even stained my own fence yet - LOL!
 

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One thing that I notice about going cordless is weight. I like pneumatic tools. Wired electric tools weigh more and cordless are heavier yet. In cordless, more power=more batteries=more weight. Cordless may be more convienient for small jobs but if you are planning to be there, even for a full day, it's compressor time!
 
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