[Joe an 320]

I'm new to the Colorado area and back running my trade of finish carpentry. We moved from coastal Maine. I have a homeowner who just bought 3/4" x 5" Hickory prefinished solid plank flooring and asked for a quote for 2000sq' above grade. I've done work for them before and have a good relationship with them. I presented a quote which included a bostik MVP and glueing with nails. Of course it was pricey when they compared it to other so called reputable flooring specialists. I prefer doing thing conservatively and this ultimately eliminates call backs, but am I missing something here? This flooring cost them over $17k and I can't imagine skimping on such a beautiful product installation. They shared with me the other quotes and none had glue or MVP. Is this a regional thing? The home owner called one company and he said I was gouging them! They do trust me but I think with Hickory at a minimum with this size it should be glued as well.... Any thoughts?

 

[Kenny B]

I would definitely recommend gluing and nailing a solid product that wide. I would also charge more for the install. I live in Jersey though and our moisture is usually higher than other areas in the country

 

[Joe an 320]

I agree, I know the Bostic MVP is probably overkill here in Colorado, but hearing guys aren't using glue here as a regional thing throws me as RH ranges from 30 to 45% so it isn't a desert here. Im used to total involvement with moisture control thanks to years of working in coastal Maine and many techniques are totally disregarded here, but I have dealt with many situations where moisture has been a problem and it's due to lack of care, proper techniques and overuse of caulk!

 

[EthanB]

I don't know why you would use MVP if it's above grade. Even Bostiks Best can be a moisture barrier with the appropriate trowel. Bostik also makes another product, called Ultra something, that's designed to be a better all-in-one.

 

[Joe an 320]

I'll look into the other Bostic products. I' was considering that type of product due to the Hickory itself, having an expansion/contraction issue and it being a 5" plank. I've used hickory periodicly in cabinets and furniture and it's a great wood to work with but it's completely sealed when it's finished, not the case with hardwood. In Maine I wouldn't use this wood at this width, but here in CO it should be ok. The customer is understanding the need for the glue and nail - they went on line and saw some horror stories and they understand why I care and very glad I am educating them as well. The wood gets delivered tomorrow and I'll get my moisture readings and call Armstrong up for anymore insight and go from there. I was just a bit surprised at this customer getting multiple quotes and no installer was using adhesive, even the manufacture specs call for adhesive like all do when width is above 4". Thanks All!!

 

[pinwheel]

No glue is going to stop wood from moving if it wants to move. I spend my time learning my clients heating & cooling habits before recommending what wood to use. Hickory is unstable if you've got high swings in moisture, but if your client doesn't keep the windows open in the spring & fall & keeps the interior of the house at a relatively constant humidity, it'll remain flat once it finds it's moisture balance. I install aquabarB under all my floors to help keep moisture changes from moisture differences in the subfloor. Different woods absorb & release moisture at different rates.

If I've got a client that likes the great outdoors spring & fall, I don't recommend 5" hickory or brazillion cherry. Both are going to move a lot with humidity swings. I've installed quite a few 5" hickory floors & have never glued a single one of them & have never had a callback because of cupping. I credit that to only putting it in homes with constant humidity practices.

 

[MIKE ANTONETTI]

What's the texture of the surface? Handscraped wouldn't show cupping as much, kinda blend in.
Glueing over plywood I wouldn't want, try removing that down the road.
We didn't install this product, we were on another job, we ripped up tile on it and moisture was too high in slab so they went to this product.

 

[EthanB]

What's the texture of the surface? Handscraped wouldn't show cupping as much, kinda blend in.
Glueing over plywood I wouldn't want, try removing that down the road.
We didn't install this product, we were on another job, we ripped up tile on it and moisture was too high in slab so they went to this product.

View attachment 114469

THat's the one! Thank you. I looked at it for a recent job. I think the price per 4 gallon bucket is your firstborn child, but I'll have to check my notes.:laughing:

 

[PrestigeR&D]

No glue is going to stop wood from moving if it wants to move. I spend my time learning my clients heating & cooling habits before recommending what wood to use. Hickory is unstable if you've got high swings in moisture, but if your client doesn't keep the windows open in the spring & fall & keeps the interior of the house at a relatively constant humidity, it'll remain flat once it finds it's moisture balance. I install aquabarB under all my floors to help keep moisture changes from moisture differences in the subfloor. Different woods absorb & release moisture at different rates.

If I've got a client that likes the great outdoors spring & fall, I don't recommend 5" hickory or brazillion cherry. Both are going to move a lot with humidity swings. I've installed quite a few 5" hickory floors & have never glued a single one of them & have never had a callback because of cupping. I credit that to only putting it in homes with constant humidity practices.

Thank you,.....


Glue.........:laughing:

 

[MIKE ANTONETTI]

Yeah I think it's overkill, protects manufacturer from liability without adhesive, they have an out clause.
Your trying to hit the ground running , I'd take advice from the best in the area of they'll give it.
You can explain to customer recommended method as you've done, and let them make the call. They bought the product now trying to get the fairest deal on install, kinda backwards of their a good client , you guide them to the product .

 

[ccoffer]

The best thing to do is make sure the place stays dry and double up on the nailing schedule. Something like Bostiks isn't going to do anything to counteract cupping since the stuff has something like 300% elongation. A staple elongates exactly 0%.

Hand scraped stuff really will hide all but the worst cupping, though.

 

[littlefred811]

I'd say go with the full spread glue. A bit more, but it DOES work. Or simply have the customer sign a waiver of EVERYTHING.

Best of luck

 

[EthanB]

If the glue isn't going to improve the install then it's just wasted time and money. I don't know why you'd use it above grade on a good, nailable, substrate. I'm also not a flooring sub so my opinion is worth the full $.02.

At this point the OP is probably going to look like a crook if he backs off and says "no glue" depending on how strongly he recommended it to them. At least he saw the other quotes so he can avoid being high twice.

 

[Joe an 320]

Thanks, yeah I just saw the material, My moisture meter comes in at 3% to 0% and the subfloor is 0. I guess locally it's normal to simply nail it in - I asked at a flooring supply - the sales person was NWFA certified says in the area it's dry enough and as long as the home owner uses proper seasonal HVAC, I have little to worry about. There ya have it. I'll stick with adhesive and have the HO sign a waiver and attack this project in 3 weeks for acclimation

 

[MIKE ANTONETTI]

Those #'s don't make sense to this "concrete slab" person for a wood subfloor, shouldn't the numbers be @ 9%?

 

[66 Shelby]

3%-0% readings? I've never seen readings that low (but I'm in GA, where it can be 100% humidity and not raining). You sure you typed that correct?

I don't know CO and the typical moisture levels, but around here anything I install over 4" gets trowel glued (Bostik usually) and stapled. It covers my ass, but I damn sure don't want to do any repairs :no:.

 

[pinwheel]

Job I installed last week was 4" red oak on advantech. Sub floor had never been wet, AC had been on & running for about 3 weeks. Moisture was 9%, hardwood was 6%. Put down aquabarB paper & never looked back. Floor won't move. Gonna go back in about 2-3 weeks for the final coat of finish after the trims on & cabinets are set.

 

[littlefred811]

Here in the Denver Metro area, we easily see zeros on stuff that has been around a while. It's dry as a bone most of the time, so when I see over 6.5% or so, I get really happy with the moisture meter.
Water damage repair out here and up in the foothills can be a true joy.

 

[Joe an 320]

Ha! Yeah I was quite surprised at the 0% reading! LOL! In maine I'd be darn happy with a 6 to 8% reading!
In mid June getting a bone dry reading means this stuff won't be doing any creep or shrink thru the seasons with proper HVAC control. This all explains the gun and run quotes though, thanks to all for the lively discussion!

 

[pinwheel]

You guys aren't going to convince me that wood is going to have a zero moisture content.