Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum banner

161 - 180 of 198 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,834 Posts
Agreed... but who is responsible for them making it? Them or the government?

Why shouldn't the government set a "living wage" for everyone and that's what everyone makes no matter their skill set or motivation?

You are kidding, right?

If fast food or restaurants in general have to pay $15 an hour to everyone, then how many customers would no longer be there to eat, because the prices then would be out of their budgets. The idea is fine, in general terms....but, if the government gets in the act, and the markets cannot act, then abject failure will result.

WalMart in point:

Bitch about WM all you want...cry about the businesses they ruined by coming to town..all the mom and pop stores gone.....all the cheap assed crap they sell. Now, step back, and think about the people who buy there because they cannot afford to buy anywhere else. Take WM away, and mom and pop will raise prices and profits, but that will benefit very few, relatively speaking. And mom and pop ain't going to pay a dime more then they have to either.

I understand in North Dakota, WalMart pays store associates like $18an hour....but their store prices are not that much higher then say the WalMart in Fayetteville, Ar. So they basically respond to the market and overall company performance to determine profit....but, if the store in Fargo ND. started losing real money due to the wages they had to pay, they would make an economic decision, paying heed ot the owners of WalMart, the stockholders, and close the non profitable stores.

I read that if restaurants are forced to pay Obama's living wage, or income "equality", it is estimated that eating out would then be a luxury for the top 10% of income earners in America and fully 3/4 of all fast food joints would be gone.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,895 Posts
It is by design. Plumbing is easy to learn. The "design" part is we as a group limit who can join our club.

Carpenters and roofers have not bonded together to protect the trade.
A carpenter, if they had a license and were a protected group, would make a lot of money. Instead, everybody with a hammer calls themselves a carpenter......and everybody is fine with that.

Doctors, while it is a learned skill, has a massive barrier to entry. They are insulated.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,834 Posts
I know a few guys who have been decent plumber's helpers for a long time....can plumb as good some master plumbers......but, they simply cannot get past the test. I would also agree that by design, plumbers have protected their trade in a positive way, it obviously isn't for everyone.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,895 Posts
I know a few guys who have been decent plumber's helpers for a long time....can plumb as good some master plumbers......but, they simply cannot get past the test. I would also agree that by design, plumbers have protected their trade in a positive way, it obviously isn't for everyone.
It's not just plumbers.

Elevator operators? Same thing.
Sprinkler fitters? Same thing.
steam fitters? Same thing.

Carpenters should be licensed and restricted.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,834 Posts
It's not just plumbers.

Elevator operators? Same thing.
Sprinkler fitters? Same thing.
steam fitters? Same thing.

Carpenters should be licensed and restricted.
So if a framing carpenter or a trim guy misses a measurement, or gets a wall out of plumb, the world is upside down? :whistling

A plumber roughs in a house, and the drain lines don't have the correct fall, or too much, and stuff really goes south, or north...requiring extensive repairs, or even slab tear outs. Saw that once.

Licensed contractors? Sure. Licensed carpenters? Trim guys? How about the carpet installers? Or maybe...just maybe, we don't need any more restrictive nonsense out there in the trades.

I saw you posted about working on your own plane...are you an A&P? Have an IA watching you? Or do you have it in the experimental class to get around the Fed intervention? I have a buddy that absolutely is qualified and experienced enough to be trusted to work on an airplane....but calls an A&P, at least to watch...or is this your point?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,895 Posts
I'm 100% in favor of trade protection.

Airplanes. My current project is experimental, long list of rules on this.

But what I can tell you is that the quality far surpasses certified. My wood wings for example, the 780 - 1/16" thick rib gussets are aircraft grade mahogany. 7 separate operations, measured with dial calipers to be within thousandths of an inch. The A&P's call us nuts and say just cut it and glue it. But to us who build this is our lives in it. It's perfection or nothing.

Most homebuilders are extremely anal about quality.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,834 Posts
And you missed my point. You like what you do, and that is great. I have been an A&P ofr 20+ years and held an IA for many years when I was still active. While I would agree, generally, that most homebuilders are anal...as pilots can be, there are exceptions....so I say lets make it a Federal law that you can't do anything except check the oil and gas, and make it a complete license...2500 or so hours to be legal....how would you like that?

You would not. But...most guys flying homebuilt airplanes are not going to kill anyone except themselves for being dumb.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,193 Posts
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: EDIT:Reference Joasis #166

Licensing is actually an interferance with free markets.... be it plumbers or doctors.... it creates a barrier to entry, and in many cases serves to artificially set "minimum" wages in a "profession".

The AMA can be seen to be a "professional union" that restricts entry and insures better wages for doctor's... at least in the purest economic sense.

But as a society, we have deemed certain employment should be governed to at least certain minimum standards.... generally for safety and public interest/welfare.

But from a purest economic sense, be it unionazation or lisencing, it is an infringement of free markets.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,895 Posts
Here's an example.


ForumRunner_20131206_102053.jpg

In the 1940's these were cut on a band saw and the material was sub standard, as well as the adhesives.

The FAA is happy with that. I'm not. None of us are. I'll have 2,000 hours in just my wings. Project was started in 2005.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,895 Posts
And you missed my point. You like what you do, and that is great. I have been an A&P ofr 20+ years and held an IA for many years when I was still active. While I would agree, generally, that most homebuilders are anal...as pilots can be, there are exceptions....so I say lets make it a Federal law that you can't do anything except check the oil and gas, and make it a complete license...2500 or so hours to be legal....how would you like that?

You would not. But...most guys flying homebuilt airplanes are not going to kill anyone except themselves for being dumb.
I'm not getting in to this. To be an A&P is so easy it's not even worth the discussion.
 

·
Contractor of the Month
Joined
·
26,075 Posts
I'm 100% in favor of trade protection.

Airplanes. My current project is experimental, long list of rules on this.

But what I can tell you is that the quality far surpasses certified. My wood wings for example, the 780 - 1/16" thick rib gussets are aircraft grade mahogany. 7 separate operations, measured with dial calipers to be within thousandths of an inch. The A&P's call us nuts and say just cut it and glue it. But to us who build this is our lives in it. It's perfection or nothing.

Most homebuilders are extremely anal about quality.
Mike pack your bags and go back to leftist land. :laughing:
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,895 Posts
Why? Do you enjoy homes being hacked up by anybody with a hammer?

I've been in enough homes to see the result of these idiots. Homeowners deserve better.

If that makes me a lefty then so be it. I could care less about those words.

Boy, ever since Nathan left politics is allowed in almost every thread now.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,834 Posts
I'm not getting in to this. To be an A&P is so easy it's not even worth the discussion.

Now I know you are full of it.

You must take 600 hours of general instruction at a school, or document the required time...and then 900 hours or airframe, and then 900 of powerplant, complete with documentation and sign offs. All in a part 147 school, or by qualified instruction....and that don't mean your local fuel truck driver, or your military DD214 any longer. That ended a few years back.

And then, after all the paperwork and training has been reviewed, and approved by the GADO, you then get to take the oral and practicals, plus written tests with 300 questions out of a possible 2700.

Yep....easy would only be if you have found a way to circumvent the law pal, and then your ticket ain't worth the laminated plastic covering it.

I hold multiple ratings, including MEII, and AGI, as well, and none of the ratings were as difficult as the A&P. I taught in a 147 school for a few years back in the late '90s, so yeah, I call BS.
 

·
Contractor of the Month
Joined
·
26,075 Posts
Why? Do you enjoy homes being hacked up by anybody with a hammer?

I've been in enough homes to see the result of these idiots. Homeowners deserve better.

If that makes me a lefty then so be it. I could care less about those words.

Boy, ever since Nathan left politics is allowed in almost every thread now.
No, because it doesn't stop hacks, the more barriers to entry the more hacks there are because the actual price is above the natural level so people seek out hacks that are cheaper.

It's like abortion, if it's illegal more people die because they seek out back alley illegals clinics.
 

·
Contractor of the Month
Joined
·
26,075 Posts
The net result is not consumer protection it's increased wages for the tradesman.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,834 Posts
I have seen so many houses kill people because of crappy carpenters that stay in business that I agree...license and regulate until we kill the trade.

I am beginning to think I know Oconomowoc....you are the plumber that is in our NAHB association that tries to convince us the fire sprinklers are the best thing since sliced bread.....can't be because he will make an extra $6 a sq/ft on new homes if they become law...he is thinking about the kids, right?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,895 Posts
Now I know you are full of it.

You must take 600 hours of general instruction at a school, or document the required time...and then 900 hours or airframe, and then 900 of powerplant, complete with documentation and sign offs. All in a part 147 school, or by qualified instruction....and that don't mean your local fuel truck driver, or your military DD214 any longer. That ended a few years back.

And then, after all the paperwork and training has been reviewed, and approved by the GADO, you then get to take the oral and practicals, plus written tests with 300 questions out of a possible 2700.

Yep....easy would only be if you have found a way to circumvent the law pal, and then your ticket ain't worth the laminated plastic covering it.

I hold multiple ratings, including MEII, and AGI, as well, and none of the ratings were as difficult as the A&P. I taught in a 147 school for a few years back in the late '90s, so yeah, I call BS.
People who build experimental airplanes become A&P's all the time, there's all sorts of rules. Everybody I know is an A&P. They are everywhere.

Anyhow, you'll fight me till the end just like the JF discussion, until you are personally upset..... then shut the thread down. That's how you roll.

You should be eliminated as a mod. Why don't you share the PM you sent me with the group? You know, the one where you asked me to make a pubic apology?

I'm done. Drop it.
 

·
Contractor of the Month
Joined
·
26,075 Posts
People who build experimental airplanes become A&P's all the time, there's all sorts of rules. Everybody I know is an A&P. They are everywhere.

Anyhow, you'll fight me till the end just like the JF discussion, until you are personally upset..... then shut the thread down. That's how you roll.

You should be eliminated as a mod. Why don't you share the PM you sent me with the group? You know, the one where you asked me to make a pubic apology?

I'm done. Drop it.
Kiss the ring Mike.
 
161 - 180 of 198 Posts
Top