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Cope Vs Miter...Tested

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TBFGhost

· Finish Carpenter
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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I was taught by an old school carpenter to always cope. Say its faster, and better then miters. Less Prone to movement. So I always did molding this way....untill I worked for a builter who mitered most joints....never pushed it on me, as he didn't care how I did as long as it came out good and I didn't spend forever, but I always found that he moved faster then me...no he didn't sit there and tune the miter to 44.3879573623 degress, he just left a gap and let the painters hit it.....

So............ when I did some crown in my home 4 years ago I coped it all....then about a year ago I did another room and mitered it all....

You can't tell the difference, then and now....

I am not here to say which is better....just stating I found that so far, I don't see a difference besides I do find miters faster.....take all your measurments...cut it all, nail it all up....

(Sorry for this random post...I was staring at the corners in the crown while eating dinner....and later while on the John.....)
 
#3 ·
If you have your inside or other angles exact, then a miter would be best. I'm still a guy that copes all inside corners. If it's hardwood kitchen crown, I will miter it, glue, nail it on the inside and then install onto the cabinets. If it's crown moulding at the ceiling, most of the time it's painted, I cope that.

also, simple colonial crown is easy to cope but more complex crown is easier to miter.
 
#4 ·
well if you cope it properly including where you start in a room and in which direction you go you won't have any gaps and you WON"T have to rely on a painter to fix what should be done correctly in the first place. I always make my copes so that when you walk into a room you are looking past the joint, not at it and I was taught to make them perfect regardless of whether or not they are gettting painted or stained. Maybe I'm just too old school?
 
#5 ·
While I was sitting on the john (by the way my name IS John) I was looking at my crown molding and was remembering how I did the corners-

Coped to within 1000/inch, glued, two bisquits, 8 pin nails, rabetted into each other (especialy dificult with the cope)

I'm sure they won't open up :laughing:
 
#7 ·
That may be true in many cases. Though, the larger the crown the more coped joints have an advantage. Also in some climates the Summers are very humid and Winters bone dry (like here in MN) so you want to go with joints that are more forgiving. I like to spring the coped pieces in tight.

I also work alone most of the time, and you can use the copes to hold the end of a piece of crown for you (like an extra hand) and work "backwards"... if that makes sense. It is a strange method, but works once you get the hang of it.
 
#8 ·
the old crappy houses i work on its easier to cope the base cause the walls are no where near 90, and usually the base will not be plumb (the bigger problem).
the past 3 houses (cheap flippers) i trimmed had beaded top base. and a small bead at that. there was hardly anything to even cope to, so i just square cut it where it met the old work and it looked good.
 
#9 ·
ApgarNJ said:
also, simple colonial crown is easy to cope but more complex crown is easier to miter.
Click to expand...
Yup, even still, I cope if at all possible.:thumbsup:

And yes, that is Behr paint and I did do it myself.:whistling
 

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Discussion starter · #10 · (Edited)
dave_dj1 said:
well if you cope it properly including where you start in a room and in which direction you go you won't have any gaps and you WON"T have to rely on a painter to fix what should be done correctly in the first place. I always make my copes so that when you walk into a room you are looking past the joint, not at it and I was taught to make them perfect regardless of whether or not they are gettting painted or stained. Maybe I'm just too old school?
Click to expand...
That is how I used to do it. I could look at the room first, and find the primary and secondary viewing angles and place the copes and butts accordinly. Every painter I talk to caulks all corners, if they need it or not. With paintgrade trim, I am come to the conclusion that it is a waste of time and money to get Air-Tight joints...

basswood said:
That may be true in many cases. Though, the larger the crown the more coped joints have an advantage. Also in some climates the Summers are very humid and Winters bone dry (like here in MN) so you want to go with joints that are more forgiving. I like to spring the coped pieces in tight.

I also work alone most of the time, and you can use the copes to hold the end of a piece of crown for you (like an extra hand) and work "backwards"... if that makes sense. It is a strange method, but works once you get the hang of it.
Click to expand...
in NJ we get pretty humid summers and with forced hot air, we get bone dry winters. I found that neither the miter or the cope showed any advantage over the other around here. I also used to work along so the whole spring the crown in worked great to align the ends while standing in the middle. I found it faster and easier to bring along a helper. I seem to be getting more work in the summer then any other time of year (no surprise there), and high-school is out. Find yourself a decent kid and teach him something.

I just found a guy who never caulked a day in his life before. I handed him the gun, told him to caulk the crown to the ceiling and he did it very well and very neat. I told him to then try to do the crown to wall, which was already painted a medium shade of tan, and he did that neat as well. Not an easy thing for some people.

He is now my prepper...I hang, he holds the trim in place if need be, and then he follows behind prepping. Filling, sanding, caulking....priming if need be.

chris klee said:
the old crappy houses i work on its easier to cope the base cause the walls are no where near 90, and usually the base will not be plumb (the bigger problem).
the past 3 houses (cheap flippers) i trimmed had beaded top base. and a small bead at that. there was hardly anything to even cope to, so i just square cut it where it met the old work and it looked good.
Click to expand...
As far as walls not being plumb, I find drywaller and mudders often make that situation worse....but it can be over come. I use my speed square and go around to all the corner and check for plumb if they are that out. The ones that a screwy, I use a drywall screw to create an "adjustable" shim....
 
#11 ·
chris klee said:
the old crappy houses i work on its easier to cope the base cause the walls are no where near 90, and usually the base will not be plumb (the bigger problem).
the past 3 houses (cheap flippers) i trimmed had beaded top base. and a small bead at that. there was hardly anything to even cope to, so i just square cut it where it met the old work and it looked good.
Click to expand...
Sometimes you just are given a pile of S**T and have to make it work. But being able to turn the pile of S**T into a decent finished product is what makes you a pro.
 
#13 ·
i wouldnt say waste of time, but there is an acceptable level that the caulk and paint will take care of. it depends on the customer really. we have one reno (the only real job we have right now) and the guy is a furniture maker. i dont think there will be any mitered inside corners, and no "good enough for caulk" work going on here, even though its paint grade.
 
Discussion starter · #14 · (Edited)
I can understand wanting to get perfect joints....but in the end, I don't see the rewards besides I know they are tight...other then that no one else ever knows or even cares.


chris klee said:
i wouldnt say waste of time, but there is an acceptable level that the caulk and paint will take care of. it depends on the customer really. we have one reno (the only real job we have right now) and the guy is a furniture maker. i dont think there will be any mitered inside corners, and no "good enough for caulk" work going on here, even though its paint grade.
Click to expand...

Working for people like that suck...honestly, the ones that think they know, but they really don't. All they end up doing is costing themselves more money for the same end result. I am not talking about caulking in large gaps with multiple applications of heavy amount of caulk, but something that can be sealed up in one quick bead and a wet rag or finger.

I did a condo not too long ago.... 180 ln feet, but a freaking zillion corners (30? 40?). I mitered everything, I was cutting the crown in batches of 3 to 4 lengths and bringing them in where one guy was hanging them. After I cut all the crown for the entire place, I jumped in and hung the crown with him. We cut, hung, and preped the crown in an hour and a half. The guy came back, was amazed at the speed and I guess was a little leary b/c it went along every freaking foot of that crown and spent forever in each corner. He found nothing other then the black marks on the crown left by my ladder rack, which I then wiped off with a wet rag.

It was mitered and caulked....the UL MDFcrown acclimated in his place for 36 hours prior to install.


It took longer to load the truck and drop the material at the job two nights prior....


For anyone who doesn't belive it, try it in your own home.....
 
#17 ·
TBFGhost said:
I can understand wanting to get perfect joints....but in the end, I don't see the rewards besides I know they are tight...other then that no one else ever knows or even cares.
Click to expand...
That's why I prefer to cope. Cut it once, make it snug, perfect corner. Trim will move, especially along the coast. My personal experience is that copes are less offensive with seasonal changes.
 
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Discussion starter · #19 · (Edited)
basswood said:
Well... bone dry at -20 or -40*F is way more "bone drier" than at say 10*F which you might see once in a while.
Click to expand...

:laughing: this is true


WarnerConstInc. said:
Tight miters (that fit) and glue looks as good in three years as does a cope and snap to fit.
Click to expand...

This is also very true. Fine Woodworked tested glues not too long ago. They found that Titebond Molding and Trim Glue, as well as Elmers Pro-Bond has Excellent end-grain adhesion....I agree. I goober up my miters with Titebond Molding and trim....used ProBond a few times too...thicker then reg wood glue.
 
#20 ·
WarnerConstInc. said:
Tight miters (that fit) and glue looks as good in three years as does a cope and snap to fit.
Click to expand...
That may be true, but not in my experience. Could be due to the fact that almost all the homes I installed crown in were swaying on pilings, 8' above grade. In any case, in a production environment, I find that nicer corners can be achieved in less time by coping. Just my opinion, based on my experience.:thumbsup:
 
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