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NHNailbangah

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Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited)
Furnace install without chimney liner?

I was wondering if you guys could answer a couple of questions about furnace install and chimney liners, or lack of one.

First a little background.
Good customer of mine, older gentleman in his late 70's,, has owned and lived in the same house for 40+ yrs. lost his wife of 60 yrs. last year.
His daughter convinces him to move to Fla. for the winter, and live with her.
He knows his furnace is shot and needs to be replaced before he moves south, and closes the place up for the winter. So he calls the company that's been servicing the old unit for many years, very well known local company.
They install new high efficiency oil fired forced hot water unit, he goes south for the winter, and leaves the thermostat set at 45*.

This spring the daughter comes up to open up the house and do some much needed spring cleaning. And then I get a call telling me that the chimney, above the roof line is falling over, and the second dloor bedroom ceiling is comletley soaked and stained brown, along with the closet that houses the chimney, and there is a horrible odor throuout the second floor of the house.
They never had any signs of a problem with the old unit.

So I call a local chimney repair company, they come over to look and he explains how there is NO chimney liner at all just a 60 yr. old brick chimney, that is letting carbon monoxide into the house. Then he opens the clean out door and there is soot/debris piled up to the inlet of the furnace pipe approx. 2' high.

My question is , is it standard practice to install new high efficiency furnace into an old masonry chimney without a liner?
Would you as the installer or company have mentioned something to the owner about the necessity of a liner?
Is there a code concerning this?
Would you clean out bottom of chimney of soot /debris before installing new unit?

The owner also told me that he recently received a letter from the fire dept. saying that his new furnace was not inspected after install, and he needs to set up appt. to do so. I am wondering if it could pass without a liner?

Needless to say new stainless liner and chimney rebuild scheduled for next week.
Thanks for any info you can give me.
 
A chimney requires some type of a liner to be considered a chimney. It may at that point require re-lining which means dropping a stainless steel liner. So if there is just brick and no liner at all the stainless liner was required at the time of installation.
 
A high efficiency furnace probably lacks adequate heat in the exhaust air to properly vent through an open chase. The flue gasses will cool and condense before exiting the chimney. The condensation in a brick chase can be a problem.
 
Discussion starter · #4 ·
A high efficiency furnace probably lacks adequate heat in the exhaust air to properly vent through an open chase. The flue gasses will cool and condense before exiting the chimney. The condensation in a brick chase can be a problem.
Pretty sure this is what caused the damage to upstairs bedroom and closet.

Thanks for the info.
 
The requirement to address chimney conditions is often ignored and the symptoms you mentioned are par the course. Albeit, we usually see the moisture issue first, then the deterioration usually within 5 years if not addressed. Sounds like the chimney was already on it's last leg when the heater was installed and the installers should have noticed.

Total BTU input of all appliances in combination of smoke pipe run and chimney height will dictate the size liner required (typ. 5"/ 5.5"/6" usually covers it)

Inspected or not - I get these calls all the time
 
Weather it had a liner or not its considered a chimney.

The term high efficiency. When used with an oil furnace or boiler is misleading. Its probably only in the 80%+ efficiency range.

No fossil fuel burning appliance is approved for installation in a brick and motar, or cement block and motar chimney. Not for a long long time now. If only an oil appliance/appliances are being vented through it. A steel or stainless steel liner is required by code.

Look for a small ÂĽ" hole in the flue pipe between the boiler and the draft regulator. Its required in order to do a combustion test. To set the oil burner up properly. If there isn't a hole. Then it also wasn't set up properly.

I doubt this is the only thing that wasn't brought up to code when the new boiler was installed.

Other things to check/look for are:
Backflow preventer.
Low Water Cut Off.
Mixing/Tempering vale, if the boiler has a tankless coil.
Emergency off switch,located at the entrance to the basement.
Firematic oil valve(automatically shuts from heat in case of a fire).
 
Other things to check/look for are:
Backflow preventer.
Low Water Cut Off.
Mixing/Tempering vale, if the boiler has a tankless coil.
Emergency off switch,located at the entrance to the basement.
Firematic oil valve(automatically shuts from heat in case of a fire).
Depends where he lives not all of these are required. I will agree they are good practices.
Weather it had a liner or not its considered a chimney
Not anymore it is considered a chase. It requires some kind of a liner to be considered a chimney. Again that is why they call it re-lining a chimney in the codes. This would be when it must be re-lined for a reason like the seven times rule or any one of many reasons.
 
Depends where he lives not all of these are required. I will agree they are good practices.

Its still code no matter where he lives. Its IMC. His local may not follow IMC though.l

Not anymore it is considered a chase. It requires some kind of a liner to be considered a chimney. Again that is why they call it re-lining a chimney in the codes. This would be when it must be re-lined for a reason like the seven times rule or any one of many reasons.
My IFGC, still considers it a chimney, and list it as such.

Brick and motor.

You can line a chimney, or you can reline a chimney.
 
Maybe we should review NFPA 31 6.6.8 and 6.6.9 for fuel oil and NFPA 54 chapter 12 especially 12.6.1.3 and table 12.5.1 for cat 1 1. Chimney must have an approved liner or be relined according to other situations.
 
Maybe we should review NFPA 31 6.6.8 and 6.6.9 for fuel oil and NFPA 54 chapter 12 especially 12.6.1.3 and table 12.5.1 for cat 1 1. Chimney must have an approved liner or be relined according to other situations.
I believe the key phrase is: "Chimney" must have an approved liner.

If a brick and motor chimney, wasn't a chimney. Then there would be no need to say the "chimney" must have an approved liner.

Nor could you drop a liner down it. Since a chimney liner, can only be used to line a "chimney".
 
It clearly stats there must be a liner not just chimney block or brick can ever be used.
Both brick and motor, and block and motor chimneys haven't been code approved for a long time now.

But, it is still a chimney.

I can go into a several hundred homes in the city(conservative number), and find them. Without having to look hard.
 
We had one of the SupaFlue guys come to our house. Not sure what it is really, but we have an old house with a similar chimney set up, meaning no original liner. Been working great for years.
Look for brick dust, or motor joints that are gone or cracking.

The hydrogen sulfide acid in nat gas acts on both the brick and motor more then the sulfer/sulfuric acid of oil will. Mostly because oil generally has a higher flue temp. And the sulfer dioxide has no moisture to mix with. To form the sulfuric acid.
 
Discussion starter · #15 ·
Look for brick dust, or motor joints that are gone or cracking.

The hydrogen sulfide acid in nat gas acts on both the brick and motor more then the sulfer/sulfuric acid of oil will. Mostly because oil generally has a higher flue temp. And the sulfer dioxide has no moisture to mix with. To form the sulfuric acid.
This is pretty much how it was explained to me by the company doing the lining/rebuild.

Thanks for all the input guys, much appreciated.
 
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