A potential client is asking for stone veneer around his foundation. House is only a year or two old and the builder had someone slap a quick stucco coat over the block. As is typical, It has cracked in spots and the block joints are shadowing through. Overall the stucco is in decent shape but some of the cracks sound a little hollow like it's separating from the block. I'm a little apprehensive as I've never had to veneer over something like that. Would you guys recommend screwing some lathe in before just in case his stucco isn't bonded well? Would you take the job at all? We'd be using thin stone veneer with bonding agent in mortar.
![Image]()
Stone veneer over stucco
newson stone
1 - 9 of 9 Posts
A potential client is asking for stone veneer around his foundation. House is only a year or two old and the builder had someone slap a quick stucco coat over the block. As is typical, It has cracked in spots and the block joints are shadowing through. Overall the stucco is in decent shape but some of the cracks sound a little hollow like it's separating from the block. I'm a little apprehensive as I've never had to veneer over something like that. Would you guys recommend screwing some lathe in before just in case his stucco isn't bonded well? Would you take the job at all? We'd be using thin stone veneer with bonding agent in mortar.
![Image]()
I don't play with thin veneers much, but, as with anything, you need to have something solid to build on.
I would chip anything that's loose, pressure wash, lathe, and go. All part of providing the best possible job you can.
There are some way more familiar with the process that will chime in soon.
P.s. Remember to get a good flashing at the top. đź‘Ť
I would chip anything that's loose, pressure wash, lathe, and go. All part of providing the best possible job you can.
There are some way more familiar with the process that will chime in soon.
P.s. Remember to get a good flashing at the top. đź‘Ť
Joined
·
485 Posts
If you bid this one....I'd include knocking off the pointed stucco in order to apply metal lath and scratch coat to bridge over any stair stepping going on with the CMUs.
I'd also pull in a proposal from a ticketed electrician to do a little work with the quick disconnect(s); junctions as well as the meter base. The meter base is only going to move a little with whatever loose supply can afford from the interior as well as the underground cable if they want to go all thin-stone veneer around the foundation.
The owners might appreciate a little cost savings from the electrical and HVAC guys by leaving the meter box along but shoving everything back towards that location so that you can have a "service panel"...basically your stucco finish that you'd touch up the stucco once everything is compiled around the meter box area. A vertical edge on both sides of the "service panel" from the ground up to the skirt board and drip at the bottom of the siding to help kill the top of the thin-stone veneer. The service panel can use the same kind of materials used in the crawl space doors just to match up on this utility wall.
Hopefully the other walls won't be nearly as "busy" but plan ahead for the HVAC, plumber and electrician....and perhaps the electrical service suppliers that truly dislike anyone messing with THEIR meter box. The one post on the corner of the inset beneath the deck with have to R&R, vents, openings and downspouts...plus anything else around the foundation in the way of the veneer installation.
I think if you draw up a proposal based on everything to make the veneer look like it was meant to be there and all the licenses you may have to engage to do that specialty R&R; plus the skirt & drip to work to before you even get started bringing in the thin-stone veneer materials....they'll thank you for your time and cut you loose.
Which is why I don't give free estimates. The way I'd address it to the owners is walk them around the foundation and point out where a chunk of their money will be going just to achieve a natural stone appearance....and if they want a proposal, let your conscience be your guide on how much to charge for your service. When the bitching starts about "you're charging for an estimate?" Just say...this $300 comes off of the top of the last payment to me. I've been taken to task for asking for up-front fees for proposing work as being unfair to the potential client. However if you don't you'll be working all day giving out free proposals that the owners will simply take your paperwork and shop around to anyone else with a truck, magnetic sign and parked out front of Home Depot. When it comes to fairness....it's me first and once they've got some skin in the game, they get the best I can provide from a sound, solid proposal all the way to sweeping up the last nail out of the driveway.
Personally, I think they're wishing for something that they'll never want to spend the money on. Even if they choose NOT to follow through after getting your proposal for a day's office work at the desk, phone and up to date rates on materials and labor and paid you a $300 fee....it'll probably be the best $300 they spent on the whole idea. There's nothing cheap about what they have in mind here...and that would include you as the GC to provide the services to accomplish it.
I'd also pull in a proposal from a ticketed electrician to do a little work with the quick disconnect(s); junctions as well as the meter base. The meter base is only going to move a little with whatever loose supply can afford from the interior as well as the underground cable if they want to go all thin-stone veneer around the foundation.
The owners might appreciate a little cost savings from the electrical and HVAC guys by leaving the meter box along but shoving everything back towards that location so that you can have a "service panel"...basically your stucco finish that you'd touch up the stucco once everything is compiled around the meter box area. A vertical edge on both sides of the "service panel" from the ground up to the skirt board and drip at the bottom of the siding to help kill the top of the thin-stone veneer. The service panel can use the same kind of materials used in the crawl space doors just to match up on this utility wall.
Hopefully the other walls won't be nearly as "busy" but plan ahead for the HVAC, plumber and electrician....and perhaps the electrical service suppliers that truly dislike anyone messing with THEIR meter box. The one post on the corner of the inset beneath the deck with have to R&R, vents, openings and downspouts...plus anything else around the foundation in the way of the veneer installation.
I think if you draw up a proposal based on everything to make the veneer look like it was meant to be there and all the licenses you may have to engage to do that specialty R&R; plus the skirt & drip to work to before you even get started bringing in the thin-stone veneer materials....they'll thank you for your time and cut you loose.
Which is why I don't give free estimates. The way I'd address it to the owners is walk them around the foundation and point out where a chunk of their money will be going just to achieve a natural stone appearance....and if they want a proposal, let your conscience be your guide on how much to charge for your service. When the bitching starts about "you're charging for an estimate?" Just say...this $300 comes off of the top of the last payment to me. I've been taken to task for asking for up-front fees for proposing work as being unfair to the potential client. However if you don't you'll be working all day giving out free proposals that the owners will simply take your paperwork and shop around to anyone else with a truck, magnetic sign and parked out front of Home Depot. When it comes to fairness....it's me first and once they've got some skin in the game, they get the best I can provide from a sound, solid proposal all the way to sweeping up the last nail out of the driveway.
Personally, I think they're wishing for something that they'll never want to spend the money on. Even if they choose NOT to follow through after getting your proposal for a day's office work at the desk, phone and up to date rates on materials and labor and paid you a $300 fee....it'll probably be the best $300 they spent on the whole idea. There's nothing cheap about what they have in mind here...and that would include you as the GC to provide the services to accomplish it.
See, Newson? Around here, you can get answers to the question you asked AND questions you didn't ask. Sometimes the latter is the more informative.
Very comprehensive, Dan. You got your good deed for the day in. đź‘Ť
Very comprehensive, Dan. You got your good deed for the day in. đź‘Ť
I appreciate those answers! The two other things I was unsure of was the flashing up top and what to do about utilities.
I suppose regular flashing would be fine with thin stone veneer as opposed to some kind of stone drip edge like you'd see on full depth veneer.
I also had the idea of creating a kind of service panel, but having them come bump it out would another good option. Either way, I think getting the utility companies input would be a good idea.
Client is a good guy who understands this is going to be expensive. The way I see it, the builder is the one who gave him this problem. Client approached him about the stucco issues and his response was "well I figured you'd just veneer it later" I cant believe some of the **** they pull down here. If he really wants to do it right all that stuff has to be accounted for.
While I typically don't charge for proposals, I totally get your point. I like to give people ranges based on past jobs before doing a site visit to see if they even have a clue what it's going to cost. Then with the understanding that it could go higher still, I do a visit. Finally, when I feel they are all but committed, I'll do a detailed proposal. Too many times out in these rural areas people think they're going to get some guy to come out and do it for like $800
I suppose regular flashing would be fine with thin stone veneer as opposed to some kind of stone drip edge like you'd see on full depth veneer.
I also had the idea of creating a kind of service panel, but having them come bump it out would another good option. Either way, I think getting the utility companies input would be a good idea.
Client is a good guy who understands this is going to be expensive. The way I see it, the builder is the one who gave him this problem. Client approached him about the stucco issues and his response was "well I figured you'd just veneer it later" I cant believe some of the **** they pull down here. If he really wants to do it right all that stuff has to be accounted for.
While I typically don't charge for proposals, I totally get your point. I like to give people ranges based on past jobs before doing a site visit to see if they even have a clue what it's going to cost. Then with the understanding that it could go higher still, I do a visit. Finally, when I feel they are all but committed, I'll do a detailed proposal. Too many times out in these rural areas people think they're going to get some guy to come out and do it for like $800
Dan, do you mean total removal of stucco?
Joined
·
485 Posts
Yeah...if it's started to show signs of coming off in a couple of spots, most likely it's not bonding very well. If it's just cracking up but hanging in...the stucco may be in better shape than the cmu's. You'll find out as soon as you start driving cut nails into the blocks to attach your lath.
The ONLY reason I'd hinge the job on the stucco issues deals with the Manufacturers Guideline for Installation & Warranty. You'll find EVERY bundle of shingles, composite siding, cans of paint even sheathing and decking....they either come with the Installation/Warranty sheet attached or by separate page. Some have a "Before Installation Please Visit our Installation Guide at www.boguscrap.com to read prior to commencing work."
These directions are NOT just for your education. The manufacturers produce these documents as their "Get Out of Liability" cards as well as..."your warranty is void due to the improper installation of our world renown, wonderful and over-rated products!" because discuss the matter with your contractor(s) because we're OUT!<G
The last thing any of us want to hear would be "Mr Newson Stone DID KNOW or SHOULD HAVE KNOWN about the proper installation of my clients manufactured stone veneer. To deny knowledge of this well publicized pamphlet is a disservice to the court and personally a daaaaaarrrrk day in Tennessee in the pursuit of justice for my poor clients and the damages to their home." ka-ching
....or something to that effect.
It's just business. They want this but they won't want to pay the price for it given all the little things to work around. However your estimate has to be honest as to what is involved and as fair as you wish to be in coming up with an $$amount. But....you have to be fair to both the company and its principal which I assume both being you. Too many good guys underbid jobs that look difficult in order to be a "good guy" to the rescue. This one has enough issues in front of you to be any less than 100% above-board and truthful. People appreciate that.
To save the folks some money....something that I've done in the past and still specify in rural settings for houses coming off of my board (or screen) would be something like this:
1)Test the entire exterior of the foundation for soundness and note all defects as well as any top coat that breaks bond from the CMUs.
2) Repair all defects and hairline cracking.
3) Pressure wash the perimeter of the foundation to unload mud and debris from the lower runs of the foundation at the point of contact with the ground. Pressure wash all dust and debris from the balance of the stucco'd foundation up to the bottom course of siding.
4) Apply a quality name Masonry Paint in conjunction with pre-paint wall preparations prior to the base coat.
5) Install a continuous "Savannah Walk" around the complete exterior at ground level contact to the foundation exterior.
A Savannah Walk is a 24in wide "dead zone" that is made with a gravel base and capped with either more #57 gravel or river stones, pea gravel or gravel. The idea is to give a space to any gutter overflow or rain that is not in shelter to the 16-18in eaves nearly two stories up. It's also a kill zone to maintain weed away from the foundation as well a treat for pest control to hose down on their visits. Either dig in or install a pound in type of edging just to define the walkway.
I've used powered concrete buggies that I can fill with a chute and usually rent two along with a skid steer loader and gravel chute.
=====================================================================
In any case...it's a good guy option to make.
I'm sure the ThinStone is a great material...they keep telling me how great they really are!!
However Dryvit told me how great they really were back in the 1970s and then there was Louisiana-Pacific, Certainteed, Masonite and other siding manufacturers that told me how terrific and easy their product are to the housing industry in the early 1980s.
They all had two things in common....they all took a beating in the Class Action suits that followed when their Forever Exterior products failed in the first few years. The second thing....damn if I didn't get some great lunches and dinners from the sales people to talk to me about buying these new things on the market!! The latter was a lot mo' better than the former of which I never partook. Well fed and but not a plaintiff. Not too shabby.
My old man was a builder from 1954 until he passed in 1987 and he would not allow me to build EIFS or composite sidings of that time. We always stayed with things that have proved out over decades and centuries before the hustlers moved in with aluminum, vinyl, composite sidings or EIFS.
I still stick with the real thing for masonry. I've never seen installation instructions on any cube of brick delivered to a job site.<G The rules governing brick, stone and stucco veneers are a part of the building codes with some supplements to watch out for...but they're the real deal and proved out over history.
Joined
·
485 Posts
The water table on top has to be capped somehow to pick up the runoff from the siding and project it past the face of the Thin Stone. Wall flashing slid beneath the bottom run of sing and extended over the top of the stone.
The architectural term here would be "butt ugly." The thickness of the new veneer poses a problem that really can't be solved easily...and the water table is just the one problem. A skirt board framed out to kill the top of the masonry will have to have a drip cap made up to work. Having said that....it'll be some FCS (fancy carpentry s*&t) to be able to clear the access openings on this wall that open into the foundation and then the vents along with working with the utilities. I'm looking but I just can't visualize something that would look as natural as the stone in mind to hang.
It HAS to meet the approval of the lady of the house...the guys are usually just along for the ride and the checkbook...so the gal is going to be your boss most likely.
In all cases of a solution it'll be just like the Atlanta Journal and Constitution in your proposal or work change orders with a...."Extra Extra Extra!!" Most clients don't understand that it just doesn't automatically appear or install itself to meet the sales photos...it takes a game plan for YOU to come up with and then sell that to the client.
To save you some time...just focus on the photo and if you can't see how to make it work in your head, it's probably because it won't be possible without making some changes that just won't warrant the expense or make sense if they plan to market anytime soon. If you go back to the "Butt Ugly" terminology from the architects....if it's truly a problem to look at in your mind then you'll need to put in another term for realtors...."unmarketable." I've seen some God awful attempts to make things work on exteriors and interiors they all make me do a Jed Clampett
1 - 9 of 9 Posts
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
