Thought a few might be interested in these pictures of 48 foot span 100 year old joists. I will remove them a few at a time and replace with bar joists. Saving a building that should have been demoed.
Old school joist replacement.
Joasis
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
cut the joists up and sell them to the etsy crowd for mantles.:thumbsup:
I used to post a ton of pictures....and progressive work...but I quit carrying a camera, use my phone, and it is a pita to use the android to upload. But oh well.
This one has me a little nervous, but I have a solid plan, and actually can do a lot of it alone. I have earned the reputation in our area for saving these old main street buildings, and I kind of wish I had not.
The plan is to go to the front of the store, and remove 24 feet or so of the old joists, 3 of them, and then slice into the brick to create a pocket for a 4x4x1/4 inch angle clip to nest in, and then use angle rails on each side, anchored and epoxied into the brick. The rails will weld to the clips, and have 1/2 inch anchor bolts driven into the walls. The joists will then be set on top and spaced 4 feet OC, and welded and bridged.
After the first 20 feet is complete, pull the next wood joists and repeat...all the way to the back wall that isn't there...I will stop short until I build the new wall.
The greatest issue is the old masonry walls. They are way over a foot think, but all caution has to be in place because if it leans, or gets "bumped", bad deal. There is no practical way to brace with tilt wall bracing, and no way to attach tilt wall bracing unless I would drill all the way through the walls and use an all thread anchor. This is why I will do this in stages.
Power lines all around, cannot use my crane, so this is where the wrecked Lull that is not repaired will be on the job.
As I get to the back, I will build an ICF wall, with an opening for an overhead door (and to get my forklift out), and pull rods through the brick into the new concrete.
That is the plan. The engineer that designed the bar joists and loading said he can't wait to see it but is glad he isn't working it.
This one has me a little nervous, but I have a solid plan, and actually can do a lot of it alone. I have earned the reputation in our area for saving these old main street buildings, and I kind of wish I had not.
The plan is to go to the front of the store, and remove 24 feet or so of the old joists, 3 of them, and then slice into the brick to create a pocket for a 4x4x1/4 inch angle clip to nest in, and then use angle rails on each side, anchored and epoxied into the brick. The rails will weld to the clips, and have 1/2 inch anchor bolts driven into the walls. The joists will then be set on top and spaced 4 feet OC, and welded and bridged.
After the first 20 feet is complete, pull the next wood joists and repeat...all the way to the back wall that isn't there...I will stop short until I build the new wall.
The greatest issue is the old masonry walls. They are way over a foot think, but all caution has to be in place because if it leans, or gets "bumped", bad deal. There is no practical way to brace with tilt wall bracing, and no way to attach tilt wall bracing unless I would drill all the way through the walls and use an all thread anchor. This is why I will do this in stages.
Power lines all around, cannot use my crane, so this is where the wrecked Lull that is not repaired will be on the job.
As I get to the back, I will build an ICF wall, with an opening for an overhead door (and to get my forklift out), and pull rods through the brick into the new concrete.
That is the plan. The engineer that designed the bar joists and loading said he can't wait to see it but is glad he isn't working it.
Oh, I am. Really.
There is a mix of what we call locally "shale" brick, or brick from clay with a lot of shale in it. Not so much soft, but it is. Then there is about half that is hard brick. Good clay fired pressed. And the outer wall on the street has a facade of hard brick....there are bellies and waves everywhere....and I had my mason take down the damaged area where the wall fell.
The roof was way heavy, and after a 4 inch rain, it literally caved in the back 20 feet and the back wall fell into the alley.
I already had the bid and I went and ran a hammer drill to test the footing for rebar pins....and found it was lime cement. So I have to do about 10 yards of concrete that I was not planning on.
Joined
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5,339 Posts
What size are the old joists?
Missed this thread.
Looks like a fun job. Please do keep us updated with photos when you can, Jay. :thumbsup:
Looks like a fun job. Please do keep us updated with photos when you can, Jay. :thumbsup:
That seems like putting a lot of faith into the strength of that old brick.
Not seeing the building, I would wonder if the engineer couldn't have designed a column into the plan so that each new bar joist you put up is supported down to a footer cut into the floor. Then the brick becomes more of just a fascade and your new steel is the structure carrying the roof load.
A lot of the old brick houses in Trenton have their walls all brick. Outside face is nice clean hard brick but what's behind it I call sh** brick. Lime mortar, soft brick, lots of pieces. They are a nightmare to install doors into those walls. One just collapsed a month or two ago due to years and years of water intrusion weakening the wall. Killed one of the people living there.
Joined
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2,675 Posts
I've pulled apart my fair share of Philadelphia row homes, same stuff. A good trick for fastening to the soft brick is to either use wood screws and just power them in with no predrill (works like a charm in real cinder blocks from steel mill or real soft brick) or for slightly harder s**t brick use 5/32" bit for predrill instead of 3/16" for the tapcons. Works like a charm. [emoji106]
Wrapped that project months ago....and it worked out. :thumbsup:
Joined
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1,680 Posts
Cool !
I've worked on a few old buildings that were constructed in similar fashion.
The used what they had to work with and it did the job for a very long time. Would probably still be working fine had the building been maintained.
I've worked on a few old buildings that were constructed in similar fashion.
The used what they had to work with and it did the job for a very long time. Would probably still be working fine had the building been maintained.
Joined
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2,776 Posts
One concern with party walls in dying down town areas is that one building owner won't pay to heat their unoccupied space, and thus the soft back up brick explode when freeze-thawed in winter time.
And of course un maintained roofs, gutters and down spouts. lead to the lime being washed out of the pre- Portland era lime mortars.
add to the breaking of a majority of the "header" bricks tying the usual 3 wythes of brick together, and sometimes the face brick not matching the coursing of the back up wythes leaving a weak to start wall
Here North of Oklahoma, all buildings had basements, thus no heavy equipment on first floor.
Our old downtown is looking like an old wino's dental X-ray.....
Don't be afraid to charge for your unique business skills in your area.
and make sure the owners carry the risk of failure instead of your company when working on the near dead and dying structures.
Keep a strong Safety Culture even when you aren't watching....
I think demoing structures that most workers don't understand what holds them together makes the work far more dangerous then new construction, or plain nonstructural remodeling is.
And of course un maintained roofs, gutters and down spouts. lead to the lime being washed out of the pre- Portland era lime mortars.
add to the breaking of a majority of the "header" bricks tying the usual 3 wythes of brick together, and sometimes the face brick not matching the coursing of the back up wythes leaving a weak to start wall
Here North of Oklahoma, all buildings had basements, thus no heavy equipment on first floor.
Our old downtown is looking like an old wino's dental X-ray.....
Don't be afraid to charge for your unique business skills in your area.
and make sure the owners carry the risk of failure instead of your company when working on the near dead and dying structures.
Keep a strong Safety Culture even when you aren't watching....
I think demoing structures that most workers don't understand what holds them together makes the work far more dangerous then new construction, or plain nonstructural remodeling is.
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