Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum banner
1 - 20 of 44 Posts

Xtrememtnbiker

· Registered
Joined
·
5,100 Posts
Discussion starter · #1 ·
I've attached two pictures, the current floor plan and the new one. The new one has the free standing tub in the master and a larger window. The stairs aren't drawn but they are directly across the hallway from the new laundry location.

The client would like marble floors in both bathrooms. The new laundry room will have a vinyl floor.

The front of house side of the hallway is where the bearing point is for the floor joists. They are 2x10's spanning 15' this calculates to a deflection of L/318. We don't plan to take up the hallway floor as part of the project. This is a second floor with a dining room underneath so no way to add a beam and shorten the span. Well technically we could do a flush beam, but I think that blows the budget...

Doubling up the 2x10's wouldn't get us to L/720 (required for marble). We also wouldn't be able to get the new joists all the way to the bearing point without tearing up the hallway floor. It may not matter for this discussion anyway, but would you have to sister all the way to the bearing point? It would seem that you're greatly increasing the stiffness of the floor if you got within a a couple feet of the bearing point.

The client (who is probably smarter than I am...) has proposed 2x4's glued and screwed to the sides of the joist at the top and bottom for a total of 4 per joist. He feels like this would get to at deflection rating over L/1000 based on calculations he did (that I didn't fully follow). It makes sense to me that it could work, but is there a way of knowing that it would work vs just hoping it works and trying it out?

Thanks for any help you guys can be.
 

Attachments

Discussion starter · #3 ·
Done correctly, that will get you close to 3X 2X10 equivalent.

Don't forget the floor deflection between joists.
Done correctly meaning how we attach them? Would you care to provide your opinion on the method of attachment?

We will be doing 3/4" T&G subfloor with 1/2" underlayment on top. Followed by Ditra and then the marble.
 
You're making a built up I beam out of wood. The 2X4s need to be full length. You Can't leave them a couple feet short of bearing. Normally this would be nailed, not screwed. Then you have to stagger nail patterns, and make sure you aren't going to be putting nails from the 2 sides too close together.

A tile guy will have to comment on the subfloor, but you need to post joists spacing and tile size.
 
I think the 2x4 thing could work. It's like an I-joist. Must be glued correctly though. I wouldn't warranty anything unless an engineer proved it was good.

I also think in some cases you are OK not going to bearing. Just like how a roof truss can span 60' because it's stronger in the middle, being a 14' high (or whatever) beam, but only 6" high at the ends.
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
You're making a built up I beam out of wood. The 2X4s need to be full length. You Can't leave them a couple feet short of bearing. Normally this would be nailed, not screwed. Then you have to stagger nail patterns, and make sure you aren't going to be putting nails from the 2 sides too close together.

A tile guy will have to comment on the subfloor, but you need to post joists spacing and tile size.
Subfloor is using what Schluter requires for Ditra and natural stone. That's the part I feel the best about. Joists are 16" on center and tile size is 12x24.
 
I agree, but then it would lead down a long thread for those willing to participate related to our process as a business...

I'll probably get into it in another thread elsewhere.
Hey I get it. I have just gotten to the point of having someone else make that call over the last few years. In my early days I would have made that guess/call and never looked back.
 
Right. And I don't need to. I just need to know it's L/720 or higher, preferably without paying $500...
If You're at 318 now, you'll be over 720.

When it comes to framing for large tile, coupling the joists together so the floor moves as a unit in response to point or line loads can be a good structural upgrade. A lot of times we overlook it when we're discussing floor systems.

Put in bridging as well, you won't regret it.
 
You'll get a much stiffer floor by installing bridging between the joists and doubling up on your plywood than by just sistering the joists with 2x4. You should also check the Ditra specs, I seem to remember my tile guy telling me that when you're using natural stone, Ditra requires a thicker (1 1/8th I think) subfloor anyway.
 
The point was your HO may be a really smart guy, but I don't think he got the calculation right.
If You're at 318 now, you'll be over 720.

When it comes to framing for large tile, coupling the joists together so the floor moves as a unit in response to point or line loads can be a good structural upgrade. A lot of times we overlook it when we're discussing floor systems.

Put in bridging as well, you won't regret it.
...and how did you come by your calculations?
 
I agree, but then it would lead down a long thread for those willing to participate related to our process as a business...

I'll probably get into it in another thread elsewhere.
Yeah just a little. I dont know how hdavis is coming up with his number. It will be interesting to hear but who cares.

I wouldnt want to deal with chronic cracked tile even if the HO was on board from the get go. Try to convince him to pay for the real calcs.
 
...and how did you come by your calculations?
Full triple would get you ~ 1/954 nominally. Once you laminate them together, You'd be over 1000, since weak areas in any one component would have less effect.

The derating for the 2 1/2" gap between the top and bottom 2X4s is small, maybe 10%. There are I beam calculators that can get you an exact number.

The major issue with doing this is you're doing a field build under less than ideal conditions. There is no way to tell if you have 100% glue coverage and the needed clamping pressure for the glue you use. That gets a derating, but it's a SWAG, there is no way to tell ahead of time how good of a nail/ glue job you'll do.
 
Full triple would get you ~ 1/954 nominally. Once you laminate them together, You'd be over 1000, since weak areas in any one component would have less effect.

The derating for the 2 1/2" gap between the top and bottom 2X4s is small, maybe 10%. There are I beam calculators that can get you an exact number.

The major issue with doing this is you're doing a field build under less than ideal conditions. There is no way to tell if you have 100% glue coverage and the needed clamping pressure for the glue you use. That gets a derating, but it's a SWAG, there is no way to tell ahead of time how good of a nail/ glue job you'll do.
So, you are guessing. All of it.
 
1 - 20 of 44 Posts