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tkrrox

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I have been in residential construction for 22yrs. On my own for 8yrs. I have gone through 6 employees in the last 2yrs. I am trying to get a better understanding on what I should expect for what rate.

My thoughts.
$25 gets you a really good helper with hand tools and truck
$30 gets you a guy you can give a job and leave and have it done
$35 gets you a guy with all tools, truck, can do take off and run small projects
$40 gets you a lead that can do take offs, pick up materials, schedule, basically a foreman.

Am I off? I have been getting carpenters that can’t hang a slab door in an existing whole by themselves, takes 3 hrs for a prehung and upset at $30hr.
I had another that I had build attic access panels-1x6 frame w/ door stop and mdf panel. It took him 8hrs for 2. Was upset that I told him I wasn’t willing to pay him more than $25

I had a guy for a year @$30 and wanted a raise. I told him He wasn’t far enough along and he said he needed $35 or he was gone. He’s gone. He constantly missed the simple processes with construction but was ambitious and showed up.

Is this the new standard? When I was making $30 15yrs ago I was running the jobs and doing the work.

Am I just getting cronies or is this the norm???


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#2 ·
From what I've heard from a couple of active contractors down here in the San Diego area there is a shortage of carpenters, from what they were saying your pricing looks a little low. Both of those contractors are fully legit, pay all taxes, insurance, etc..
 
#3 ·
So, $30 in your market 15 years ago translates to $40 now? The SSA says that $32K/year in 2002 is now about $47K/yr. (That was the 'average' wage... not specific to the trades. But it shows the trend, and I'm too lazy to do more math.) So maybe for your market, your numbers are a little off.

However, speaking from the perspective of a wage slave, money isn't everything. By your numbers, I should be somewhere around $37, but am taking a little less (SF Bay area, which is not a cheap market) because I like my company. They treat me well, give me around 40 hrs/week, and I get to do work I like (ie, not hack work for flippers that only has to look good for two weeks).
 
#4 ·
The problem is that there is a shortage of tradespeople with actual skills. With construction the way it is in CA, anyone that can perform to the level of wages they are getting is employed (usually union, where you tend to get the highest wages)

The question is: if someone with several years of experience, and, the assumed skills and knowledge to go with those years........is looking for a job? What is their problem? Everyone I know that has even the slightest bit of skill and knowledge is busy, fully employed, and, usually getting a bunch of benefits too (again mostly union jobs).

In CA, everyone is getting more money. If you have the skills that contractors are looking for....it's a sellers market.
 
#6 ·
B.Johnson said:
You really only have a couple of options:

1. The next time that you find somebody who "is ambitious and shows up", pay him $35.00 an hour and bill your customer $70.

2. Work by your self.
Click to expand...
$70? In CA. His fica,WC, SALT, vacation, HC, Holidays, etc. probably all add up to almost $70 when paying $35/hr wage.
 
Discussion starter · #7 · (Edited)
The thing is I have raised my billing cost $5 hr since I started and still not as high as my old man was billing before he passed 8yrs ago. I’m still loosing jobs for being too expensive. Fortunately most of my work is specialty so I stay relatively busy with word of mouth. Only bud a couple times a year. (And unfortunately it’s less than 70[emoji15])


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Discussion starter · #9 ·
Defenestrate said:
There's a few threads about guys that have raised their prices, gotten better customers and made more money. Scary, but maybe worth a try.
Click to expand...


I’ve thought about it...but that still doesn’t help me find good help[emoji15]


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#11 ·
You had a guy that showed up on time and was ambitious?

I'm nowhere near CA, and I'm not talking about wages. You had a guy that showed up on time and was ambitious?
I've heard rumors about those guys. I have one now. Would love to have another. I try to treat him as good as possible.

If you are paying $35 and billing $70, you are probably billing too low. It would appear you are paying a little low, but I don't know the market. We are to a point that carpentry skills that are lacking are worth it, if you have someone that is a good worker.

As said above, maybe you aren't charging enough. Everyone thinks they are charging as much as possible, but in reality, they aren't. I am guilty of this myself.
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
builditguy said:
You had a guy that showed up on time and was ambitious?

I'm nowhere near CA, and I'm not talking about wages. You had a guy that showed up on time and was ambitious?
I've heard rumors about those guys. I have one now. Would love to have another. I try to treat him as good as possible.

If you are paying $35 and billing $70, you are probably billing too low. It would appear you are paying a little low, but I don't know the market. We are to a point that carpentry skills that are lacking are worth it, if you have someone that is a good worker.

As said above, maybe you aren't charging enough. Everyone thinks they are charging as much as possible, but in reality, they aren't. I am guilty of this myself.
Click to expand...


Yes but he was also costing me with daily mess ups. I have talked to a couple other contractors and we are right in about the same boat. Some a bit higher but not much.


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#15 ·
I read the first post, and I Immediately think to myself: "Does this guy want answers, or is he really looking to vent?"

As I read "tkrrox" replies, what I see is Yeah, but, and What about".

And so, before I get some flak, I'm goig to lay out something:

1. All the good tradesmen - already have jobs they are happy with. And its because they are good - they get to pick and choose.

So my first question is, just as if yo were telling ME you want to hire me: Why in the fck would I want to work for you? I don't know you from Joe Schmoe's. So what have you got? You say money. Well, I already get that now. So what have you got? What the fck - you got nothing good to say about your company, what its like to work there, the kinds of projects you do - THE OTHER PEOPLE I WOULD BE WORKING WITH?

So far, all I have heard, is how you deny yourself proper rate increases, how the other employees are "messing up", how you lose jobs to competitors. And not one damned word about what the nature of your business.

Now why in the eff would i want to work for a loser, get by, no pride mofo outfit like that? Why in the fck would I want to work side by side with people who "mess up" - which tells me you don't think much of your current crew? Which means if not on Day 1, somewhere down the line you will badmouth me too.

You want to get made at me? Fine.

I'll tell you this though: I worked over the years for a bunch of people. When I talk about those experiences, I never talk about how much I made - and no one asks me.

What we talk about was the experience. The fun times, the hard times, getting to do some unusual project, how the boss treated us.

Its not about you dude. No one cares about you but you.
It's about what's in in for ME.

2. Get over your damned self.
 
#16 ·
Luckily I am in a trade and niche that has "some" competition, but others in your basic building trades like carpentry, cement work, masonry, landscaping, framing and foundations, drywall, painting, etc., have a real shortage of skilled and knowledgeable workers.

The last couple of generations really don't want physical jobs that require skills that are learned over time. There is also a lack of mentors and teachers for these jobs. So what you get are mostly foreign workers (i.e. illegals and a few legal ones) that may have some limited skills from their home countries, but those skills don't measure up to US standards.

So what I am saying, in my opinion, based in NorCal, is that this is both your pool of workers and competition. Semi or low skilled workers willing to do jobs cheaply as your competition, or, the same workers looking for jobs for which they lack the level of skill needed.

If you are lucky, you might find someone that doesn't like the union job scene, but who went through the apprentice and journeyman training. However, these guys are like one in a thousand. Who would want to give up a decent wage, pension, health care and other union benefits?
 
#17 ·
SmallTownGuy said:
I read the first post, and I Immediately think to myself: "Does this guy want answers, or is he really looking to vent?"

As I read "tkrrox" replies, what I see is Yeah, but, and What about".

And so, before I get some flak, I'm goig to lay out something:

1. All the good tradesmen - already have jobs they are happy with. And its because they are good - they get to pick and choose.

So my first question is, just as if yo were telling ME you want to hire me: Why in the fck would I want to work for you? I don't know you from Joe Schmoe's. So what have you got? You say money. Well, I already get that now. So what have you got? What the fck - you got nothing good to say about your company, what its like to work there, the kinds of projects you do - THE OTHER PEOPLE I WOULD BE WORKING WITH?

So far, all I have heard, is how you deny yourself proper rate increases, how the other employees are "messing up", how you lose jobs to competitors. And not one damned word about what the nature of your business.

Now why in the eff would i want to work for a loser, get by, no pride mofo outfit like that? Why in the fck would I want to work side by side with people who "mess up" - which tells me you don't think much of your current crew? Which means if not on Day 1, somewhere down the line you will badmouth me too.

You want to get made at me? Fine.

I'll tell you this though: I worked over the years for a bunch of people. When I talk about those experiences, I never talk about how much I made - and no one asks me.

What we talk about was the experience. The fun times, the hard times, getting to do some unusual project, how the boss treated us.

Its not about you dude. No one cares about you but you.
It's about what's in in for ME.

2. Get over your damned self.
Click to expand...
I actually agree with your points. I was trying to cut the OP some slack based on my experience and what I am dealing with on commercial construction sites, plus a few resi.

I have read the OPs original statements, and, I think what there is here is: The vision in my head vs Reality.

Personally, I would love to find someone in my trade that has some skills that can start out at around $25.00 per hour. That ain't gonna happen. The minimum is $30.00, but really closer to $35.00. The cost of living anywhere near me is so high, no one in the trades can really work for less than $30.00, even if you are an apprentice. That is my reality.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Ilegals here in CO work for $10-15, some are good, some suck.

IMO, the best place to find good help is from a younger guy who finished a trade school. I attended a carpentry trade school at a vocation college (back in1982) a two year college that was pretty much all hands-on with a few hours per day in a classroom. Good school. When I finished it was a big feather in my cap when I went job searching.

One, If a guy attended a 2 year school you know he has an interest in a career (most likely). "Being interested and having a passion is a big plus in my books.

Two, you can pretty much bet the guy wants to learn and you can guide him through the way you'd like to have him do things (without being a total nazi about it)

Roll the dice and pay the guy a better than decent wage to bring him on board then throw him raises as he improves. Let him know this the day you hire him. The more he can do and the better he gets at it, the more dough he'll make.

The trouble is finding these guys. Maybe scour the trade schools and get some of the students just finishing up. IMO, some of the best guys are the younger ones who are "teachable" but still know enough of the basics so you don't have to hold their hand....or crack the whip on them.

And for us old farts, there are still some older guys with experience who can step in and get things done. But (like me) they are less productive...but their overall knowledge often overrides that. A good problem solver on the worksite is priceless.

But what I see these days are way too many employers and contractors wanting Grunts. They dish out low wages and expect inexperienced guys to do bull-work AND precision work, dangle off ladders and roofs and work outrageous hours. And all for 12-15 bucks an hour ! A perfect attraction for the drunks and druggies to work a week (screw stuff up) and then quit. And the cycle continues.

I tend to think the construction labor force as a whole is underpaid but OTOH the workers are not what they used to be. I think the same for auto mechanics as they aren't paid enough for what they have to do. And yeah the good ones are locked into a nice steady, good paying gig but there's always new ones out there floating around. I can tell by watching a new worker for 3-4 days how good he really is. Or if they have the potential to be good (interest and passion).

Funny story, yesterday, I saw two 20 year olds (workers at Home Depot) carrying tiles. They had to move them for the aisles, reband them and re-stock them. They were 12x12 tiles in 11-12 count maybe. One guy grabbed one end of the stack and the other guy had the other end. Two guys to carry a stack of tiles ??? as they shuffled along stumbling and grunting. <shaking my head>
 
#19 ·
kirkdc said:
Funny story, yesterday, I saw two 20 year olds (workers at Home Depot) carrying tiles. They had to move them for the aisles, reband them and re-stock them. They were 12x12 tiles in 11-12 count maybe. One guy grabbed one end of the stack and the other guy had the other end. Two guys to carry a stack of tiles ??? as they shuffled along stumbling and grunting. <shaking my head>
Click to expand...
Maybe CO is becoming like CA. A vast, diverse, melting pot of stupid!
 
Discussion starter · #20 ·
SmallTownGuy said:
I read the first post, and I Immediately think to myself: "Does this guy want answers, or is he really looking to vent?"



As I read "tkrrox" replies, what I see is Yeah, but, and What about".



And so, before I get some flak, I'm goig to lay out something:



1. All the good tradesmen - already have jobs they are happy with. And its because they are good - they get to pick and choose.



So my first question is, just as if yo were telling ME you want to hire me: Why in the fck would I want to work for you? I don't know you from Joe Schmoe's. So what have you got? You say money. Well, I already get that now. So what have you got? What the fck - you got nothing good to say about your company, what its like to work there, the kinds of projects you do - THE OTHER PEOPLE I WOULD BE WORKING WITH?



So far, all I have heard, is how you deny yourself proper rate increases, how the other employees are "messing up", how you lose jobs to competitors. And not one damned word about what the nature of your business.



Now why in the eff would i want to work for a loser, get by, no pride mofo outfit like that? Why in the fck would I want to work side by side with people who "mess up" - which tells me you don't think much of your current crew? Which means if not on Day 1, somewhere down the line you will badmouth me too.



You want to get made at me? Fine.



I'll tell you this though: I worked over the years for a bunch of people. When I talk about those experiences, I never talk about how much I made - and no one asks me.



What we talk about was the experience. The fun times, the hard times, getting to do some unusual project, how the boss treated us.



Its not about you dude. No one cares about you but you.

It's about what's in in for ME.



2. Get over your damned self.
Click to expand...


Listen here turbo...I asked a basic question on what to expect $ vs quality of worker. I have been baffled by the lack of skilled guys and wanted real world insight on costs From contractors in California. (Not sure why you are even putting in your two cents saying aren’t in California)If I need to pay more to get better help fine, I’m just trying not to overpay and stay competitive. You come out and call me a LOSER?!?! Really?

If you tell me you are a competent carpenter and want x amount. I put you on the job and it takes you 3 hours to hang a pre-hung, you’re a liar. This is plain and simple

I loose bids...you tell me you never have??? You sit there and ask me what it have to offer??? I didn’t realize this was an interview... you tell me I’m a get by, no pride in my work out fit???? How do you know anything about me or my company from the posts I’ve put up??? if I didn’t have pride in my work why in the heck would I be having a hard time finding quality guys, Richard????

I’ve been working with an old timer that was with my father before he passed. He is getting up there in age was wanting to inject some new blood into the company.

This a house that we just completed so you can see my loser “get by” no pride mofo Work.

https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=ce12...2e6178d4431eb&id=CE12E6178D4431EB!18983&ithint=folder,&authkey=!ACXU5wISyYM7-f8


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