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repointing flagstone

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Discussion starter · #21 ·
bytor said:
wasn't trying to be combative
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Me neither! Just felt misquoted, so I had to say something :)

bytor said:
we do use grout for flagstone on occasion, usually for interior work where a specific colour match is required and/or very tight joints.
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That's what I figured, but I had to check. I'm used to doing dry stone patios, and having people call my stone dust "grout".

dom-mas said:
ever hear of an 8 put flatform?
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Nope.
 
#23 ·
I acid wash then seal my flagstone before I point with a natural sealer, making sure to spray it on all the insides of joints, I then work it in with a broom and let it dry overnight.I then point with a pretty dry mix, using brick trowel and 3/8" slicker, finish it up with a horse hair brush. Next day come back and wash it with clean water and a hard bristle brush, use blower to get excess water off. Next Day come back and seal everything with a natural finish seal ( I will do wet look if customer wants) but always advise against it. I have not had a comeback over 3 years since I started doing this way
 
#24 ·
Just before winter hit,I bought a new Quick Point at give away prices. Have not had a chance to use it though. JBM has one and I think he loves it. Anyway,that and this other gadget may be the tools of choice for pointing paving .




 
#25 ·
The guy using that quickpoint might be one of the people I bought it from so im not going to bag on them as they are doing a nice neat job, but I can go 50 times faster then that and fill the joint all the way.

The reason I love the QP is because a new kid can pick it up and fill joints to an acceptable level in 10 minutes.
 
#27 ·
I know I've said it before but I'll say it again. I would never, ever, ever point ANYTHING with a mix as wet as is required with a quickpoint. Any kid can point very quickly with a dry mix and not make a mess and be assured of well compacted joints.

But as JBM says...w/e floats your boat and gets money in your pocket in the least amount of time with an acceptable end product
 
#30 ·
Well,just to add my .02 to the conversation on mortar wetness and compaction. First off,I picked up the Quick Point end of last year,never used it yet. I'M really not concerned that it may need a tad looser mix. Reasons being,I agree with JBM regarding compaction,it takes place when the mud is thumb print hard as we all know. Also,the standard specs.we usually see are like this; cut mortar to depth = to twice joint width or all defective mortar is removed,fill joints half full,compact and repeat ,tool joint. B.I.A. tech.notes require joints to be filled in 4 lifts.:eek:



So,with all that said,I always like mud a tad on the loose side,both for laying and for pointing,the bond is better between units. Exceptions,extremely low IRA brick,winter conditions,glass block and a few others.
 
#33 ·
grout gun

never had any luck with it...believe drill was bad choice as it wasnt a varible drill to start...tried diffrent mixs ect but main issue was lack of adjustable speed on the drill...will sort it out some day but will stick with the old trusty grout bag for now...basics
 
#34 ·
fjn said:
Well,just to add my .02 to the conversation on mortar wetness and compaction. First off,I picked up the Quick Point end of last year,never used it yet. I'M really not concerned that it may need a tad looser mix. Reasons being,I agree with JBM regarding compaction,it takes place when the mud is thumb print hard as we all know. Also,the standard specs.we usually see are like this; cut mortar to depth = to twice joint width or all defective mortar is removed,fill joints half full,compact and repeat ,tool joint. B.I.A. tech.notes require joints to be filled in 4 lifts.:eek:



So,with all that said,I always like mud a tad on the loose side,both for laying and for pointing,the bond is better between units. Exceptions,extremely low IRA brick,winter conditions,glass block and a few others.
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You aren;t compacting anything 1.5" deep when tooling at thumbprint hard. No serious restoration engineer would allow mud even close to that wet for repointing. Thumprint hard is for compacting the very outer face of the joint, fine for new work where 95% of the joint is compacted by setting the unit
 
#36 ·
Some rocks cant be done with a tool other then a quickpoint or a grout bag. Or thrown in by hand. Some bricks have missing mortar all the way through into the bricks behind it. For normal pointing using the quickpoint how would a wet mud matter in 3/4" or less?
 
#37 ·
dom-mas said:
You aren;t compacting anything 1.5" deep when tooling at thumbprint hard. No serious restoration engineer would allow mud even close to that wet for repointing. Thumprint hard is for compacting the very outer face of the joint, fine for new work where 95% of the joint is compacted by setting the unit
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I agree with the 1.5" compaction statement,however,as my post mentioned,the mud should be compacted in lifts anyway.


My take on the Quick Point video,they incorrectly showed the mud being placed in one lift. I feel it was a marketing ploy,to "attract" attention to the fact the tool can deposit quite a bit of mortar rather quickly. However,if the tool was used properly,loose mud deposited at the rear of the joint is a benefit not a detriment,it will be taken up by the units or mortar joint or both,depending on the IRA.


Here is the B.I.A. tech. note on brick maintenance,page # 4 speaks directly to our topic.


http://gobrick.com/Portals/25/docs/Technical Notes/TN46.pdf
 
#38 · (Edited)
JBM said:
Some rocks cant be done with a tool other then a quickpoint or a grout bag. it can all be done with the proper sized slicker/tuckpointerOr thrown in by hand. Some bricks have missing mortar all the way through into the bricks behind it. For normal pointing using the quickpoint how would a wet mud matter in 3/4" or less?
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This post is about flagstone and I personally have never installed 3/4" flags (I should never say never i've installed a few pieces here and there I'm sure but it's not the norm). And for regular stone pointing I'm pointing at least 1" deep but more often 1.5-2" deep.
For brick that have a missing bed the quickpoint is distributing mud into an area that will never be compacted. If you use a drier mud and a slicker/tuckpointer you can compact the mud as it's going in.

I see it exactly the same way as FJN sees shoved joints. I know nothing about the BIA (and share very few of the same beliefs that they have) but the syatem that i was taught and is used on any heritage sensitive project that I've been involved in is to do 1 deep point(And well compacted often using ram rods and hammers) to within 2x the width of the joint and then a finish point after at least a day of curing at normal temps. A wet mud will shrink but won;t be able to bring the units with it unlike new construction walling.

The wet mud also matters in that it takes longer to wait for it to go hard enough to tool/finish and it also is messy and stains. I definitely noticed that most of the quickpoint video did not show full joints. Good for filling in thin veneer but not for pointing flags or re-pointing....my opinion
 
#39 ·
dom-mas said:
but the syatem that i was taught and is used on any heritage sensitive project that I've been involved in is to do 1 deep point(And well compacted often using ram rods and hammers) to within 2x the width of the joint and then a finish point after at least a day of curing at normal temps.
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That method you are talking about (tamping rods and hammers) is a method I first was exposed to in '92,after reading Ian Cramb's book the The Art Of The Stonemason.I suppose since this thread is about stone, aspects will transfer since coarse stuff needs very little water added prior to use,just knock it up,and water will "magically" come back. Brick however,is a different animal. I have never seen rods and hammers used in their re-pointing.
 
#40 ·
fjn said:
Brick however,is a different animal. I have never seen rods and hammers used in their re-pointing.
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No but the principle is the same. You can compact dry material whereas you just displace wet material. The wet mud will shrink away from the unit once it cures. You end up with a decent tooled face on the joint and that is all. For brick that is only being re-pointed 3/4" or so deep its fine, but you still have the issue of wet mud being messy and staining the units
 
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