Question about shower system...

Knyte260 · Oct 22, 2005

In the process of installing a custom tiled shower, and when it comes to the shower system I'm mostly just learning. I haven't done anything elaborate before, but I think this is more in line with this job.

I'd like to install one of those multi spray systems, with probably 1 head / 4 body jets, or less likely just two heads that can operate independently or together. The systems made by Moen seem pretty easy, and I'm about ready to jump on one, but their answer to one of my questions had me confused.

The system I'm looking at is a Moen Kingsley , model 263/3330

http://faucet.com/decor/product.pl?mid=7876&fh=Oil Rubbed Bronze

My question is regarding water supply. The system is set up to allow simultaneous operation of both the shower head and all 4 body jets. The rating on the head is 2.5GPM, and the rating of EACH body jet is also 2.5GPM with pressure balancing loop. Now I talked directly to Moen about this, and they said the thermostatic volume control valve is rated for up to 6 GPM. They then said if I put the body jets close enough to the valve, and install the pressure balancing loop, that the shower will put out a full 2.5GPM from the shower head, AND 2.5GPM from each body jet "no problem!".

I'm wary. Thats 12.5GPM coming from a 6GPM rated valve. When I nagged with this question again, the tech person at Moen just kept saying, "it is because of the pressure balancing loop".

I have half inch water supplies, with average to good pressure, so I'm not concerned about the supply keeping up with 10 or 12 GPM. Ok guys, if anyone knows the answer, help me!

-Chris

Tom R · Oct 22, 2005

I sure don't know the answer, - - but I'm sure glad you asked, - - I've got a similar job coming up, - - looks like I might get to use you for a 'safety-valve'!! :thumbup:

Good knyte, luck, - - err, I mean, - - good luck, knyte!! :thumbsup:

Be talkin' to ya'.

Mike Finley · Oct 22, 2005

I've installed a few of these and particularly the moen brand which I think is a out-standing brand for this application, by the way, they are referred to as a 'veritcal spa'. Kinglsey, Kastleby, Monticello are just the style name of the finished pieces (the pretty stuff that shows) not the valves inside the walls which are what is important.

You do know that you have more than one choice as far as the valves go right? There are many valves offered by Moen depending on how many units you want to control and how sophisticated you want the control to be in regard to trimming temperature and pressure.

Do you understand the loop that needs to be plumbed? This is extremely important to understand or you will be in big trouble. It's basically a big circle or think of a hula hoop with the 4 body jets set on this hula hoop equally spaced from each other. This loop is what is going to ensure that each of the 4 jets spray equally, the water going to the 4 jets and the head will be controlled by the diverter valve itself. Think of it as 2 units, with the shower head being one part of the system and the 4 jets being the other.

3/4 feed would be preferred and is what I always recommend because then the system is over-built and over-capable (I also recommend a 2nd hot water tank if the customer is going to really use this shower for more than just washing their hair). If a 2nd shower head is going to be installed 3/4 would be required as would a 2nd hot water tank.

1/2 inch being adequate will depend on 2 things in my opinion -your available PSI that you have to start with being above average and the customers expectations, do they want the water massage capability of the body jets or do they just want water to shoot out of them?

By the way that Kingsley style offers a terrible shower head for a vertical spa application. Unless you are stuck on the bronze look I suggest the Asceri style and substitute the 1 single function shower head for the 3 function shower head. 4 body jets combined with that shower head offer a customer the full potential of their vertical spa.

Knyte260 · Oct 22, 2005

I only have half inch supply in the room, and it would be outside of my cost to plumb 3/4 up there. However, I did read in the manufacturers guides today that getting 3/4" valves and such (even using a 1/2 feed line), outperforms a 1/2" valve with 1/2" feed. This I am very surprised by, but seems like a great solution.

So I'm probably going to install a 3/4" valve, and have one shower head, and three or four body jets. Should be about 10 GPM or water total, which should be capable from a 1/2 source.

Thanks for the help guys!

Knyte260 · Oct 22, 2005

I totally understand the pressure loop, its very clear in all the diagrams. Thanks for the tip

Mike Finley · Oct 22, 2005

Knyte260 said:
So I'm probably going to install a 3/4" valve, and have one shower head, and three or four body jets. Should be about 10 GPM or water total, which should be capable from a 1/2 source.

What 3/4 inch valve option are you referring to?

Care to share a link to information in reference to a 3/4 inch Moen valve assembly for these units? I have never seen any offering of a 3/4 valve. It is always 3/4 feed lines to a 1/2 valve and 1/2 lines running to the heads. The only options are IPS or CC that I am aware of.

Mike Finley · Oct 22, 2005

Knyte260 said:
Should be about 10 GPM or water total, which should be capable from a 1/2 source.

I also warn you that those could end up being classified as famous last words. I strongly advise you to determine the water pressure available.

Should be are very dangerous words and ones I avoid at all costs saying to a customer because they have a strange way of coming back to haunt you financially.

Teetorbilt · Oct 23, 2005

Mike is nailing this one. You always have to look at pressure drops if you are on a municipal system, well feeds also have a cycle. You should take this into account as well.

Knyte260 · Oct 23, 2005

Moen may not offer one. I know many of the other companies thermostatics however are 3/4", some rated as high as 16GPM. I may want to go with a 3/4" valve offering, because it will help in getting more water out of the 1/2" line basically. I'm probably going to try to stick to a system at most 7.5-10 GPM, and only guarantee that up to 6GPM will flow (shower or the body jets separate). I'll offer for them to pay to have pressure tested if they want a further guarantee. Its a public water.

Good route of action?

The more I read into this stuff the more wild the systems I'm seeing running. There are some people out there installing 32GPM systems with multiple 2" drains and multiple 3/4" feeds!

Teetorbilt · Oct 23, 2005

Knyte, I'm installing these systems all of the time and they pretty much suck without removing the restrictors (I'm a guy). Typically, women like the gentle stuff (restrictors in place) and men like lots of pressure. You really need to get 3/4" to supply what you want to do.

If you decide on a pressure test, make sure that it is over 24 hrs. Pressure drops on municipal systems begin at about 5:00 AM and taper off at about 9:00. In the evening, it is from around 6:00 to 9:00.

plumguy · Oct 23, 2005

When it comes to installing thermostatic multi-head systems the biggest concern is VOLUME not pressure. It all starts at you're water meter and how the rest of the potable system has been sized and designed. Unfortunately, most homes potable systems are sized to the min. which is usually code and future is never taken into consideration.

When the water system in a home is designed it is again designed on volume. The pressure coming into you're home "is what it is". If it is above 80psi then it is considered excessive and pressure reducing valve needs to be installed to prevent damage to you're fixtures. If you are on a well then it should be a simple adjustment. If you have low pressure (below 40psi) then you need a booster or have the city ream the main of scale and mineral deposits,etc.

1/2" copper feeds coming off of a properly sized main will supply 4 heads/body sprays max. If you have diverter to switch from the 4 sprays to the main head you will be fine. If you try to run all 5 at once you will see a slight drop in volume, however it will be even amongst all 5 as long as you're loop for the sprays was installed correctly.

I have never installed an extra water heater for someone's shower! Depending on you're existing system try it out and make the changes afterwards, depending on the average shower and how many people and how often this new system will be used. If you have forced hot water for heat..you may want to look into a SuperStor system. And by the way if you have not already purchased this system..take the time to look beyond Moen. In my professional opinion Moen is like Behr paint. Do a search out here and you will find out what the pro's painter's out here think of Behr! Good Luck.

P.S. If you want a 3/4" valve look at Grohe's design, but don't get to caught up on GPM :thumbsup:

Mike Finley · Oct 23, 2005

Knyte260 said:
Moen may not offer one. I know many of the other companies thermostatics however are 3/4", some rated as high as 16GPM. I may want to go with a 3/4" valve offering, because it will help in getting more water out of the 1/2" line basically.

Good route of action?

Absolutely not. :thumbdown It's absurd to believe that putting a 3/4 valve on a 1/2 feed is going to be a magic bullet. A 3/4 valve is designed to offer the best possible flow rate when used with a 3/4 feed for a system that requires it. In short a 3/4 valve was not designed as an option on a 1/2 line to increase the capacity, but as a companion to a 3/4 feed.

Valve design is such that it will restrict the flow rate feeding it by a bit because of the design of the valve in order for it to function. Using a 3/4 valve would essentially open up this restriction a bit, however it is not going to make up for a system that is starved before it gets to the valve!

Knyte260 said:
I'm probably going to try to stick to a system at most 7.5-10 GPM, and only guarantee that up to 6GPM will flow (shower or the body jets separate). I'll offer for them to pay to have pressure tested if they want a further guarantee. Its a public water.

If I was the homeowner I would fire you on the spot for being incompetent if you told me that. Specking the proper system to match the available feed is part of your job, it isn't an option. There is always an implied warranty of mechantability in everything you do. (A customer has a right to expect the doors on a vanity to open as they were intended, not hang up because you didn't know how to install it properly, or for a light to turn on when the switch is flipped, not work some of the time because you wired it wrong)

Reading all you are replying with here, it is now obvious you are flying by the seat of your pants in regard to all this and not qualified to be doing what you are doing. I now see that you are alarmingly all over the board in regard to brands and specifications at this point also.

If you care at all about your customers welfare, you should get a licensed plumber involved with experience at what the customer is asking for as soon as possible and take some notes.

Good luck.

Tom R · Oct 23, 2005

Good stuff, plumguy, - - I was just about to say the very same thing!! :cheesygri

plumguy · Oct 23, 2005

Teetorbilt said:
Knyte, I'm installing these systems all of the time and they pretty much suck without removing the restrictors (I'm a guy). Typically, women like the gentle stuff (restrictors in place) and men like lots of pressure. You really need to get 3/4" to supply what you want to do.

If you decide on a pressure test, make sure that it is over 24 hrs. Pressure drops on municipal systems begin at about 5:00 AM and taper off at about 9:00. In the evening, it is from around 6:00 to 9:00.

Don't get caught up on pressure! How many fixtures in the home?etc..What size is the water main on you're side of the meter? Unless you have poor pressure with faucets dribbling or water hammer and fixtures making noises, I would'nt get caught up on pressure!!:thumbsup:

Mike Finley · Oct 23, 2005

plumguy said:
1/2" copper feeds coming off of a properly sized main will supply 4 heads/body sprays max. If you have diverter to switch from the 4 sprays to the main head you will be fine. If you try to run all 5 at once you will see a slight drop in volume, however it will be even amongst all 5 as long as you're loop for the sprays was installed correctly.:

That was my point earlier. It might be adequate if the customer is only interested in seeing water come out of the heads. It may not be adequate if they intend to use them therapeutically.

plumguy said:
I have never installed an extra water heater for someone's shower! :

I have, a single slow recovery rated 40 gallon hot water heater is not going to be adequate for a 2 person shower that is designed as part of a personal retreat. These showers aren't just used for washing your hair in them,(at least not the ones I do) they are closer to being used as a hot tub is for recreation and relaxation. I install a 2nd fast recovery tank in line to the first, with the old feeding the new. (yes, I know this too is open for grand discussion, the inline or not argument)

The same hot water tank issue also applies to jetted tubs.

Tom R · Oct 23, 2005

Mike Finley said:
:thumbdown If I was the homeowner I would fire you on the spot for being incompetent

???

plumguy · Oct 23, 2005

Mike Finley said:
That was my point earlier. It might be adequate if the customer is only interested in seeing water come out of the heads. It may not be adequate if they intend to use them therapeutically.

I have, a 40 gallon hot water heater is not going to be adequate for a 2 person shower that is designed as part of a personal retreat. These showers aren't used for washing your hair in them, they are closer to being used as a hot tub is for recreation and relaxation.

The same hot water tank issue also applies to jetted tubs.

I beg to differ! If you install thermostatic mixing valve (Taco 5000 series) you can turn up the internal water of the heater example 150 degrees and then set it at the mixing valve at 125 and then the shower at 112degrees. You will get more than 40 gallons from this tank. Of course we have strict codes here pertaining to hot water. Of course the proper size feed has to becoming off the heater also. Any standing water in hot water tank under 130 degress is susceptible to legionnaires disease

and this bacteria can only be killed off at water that is above 140 degrees!! But, that is a whole nother thread and issue that will soon hitting everone state by state.:cheesygri

Mike Finley · Oct 23, 2005

plumguy said:
I beg to differ! If you install thermostatic mixing valve (Taco 5000 series) you can turn up the internal water of the heater example 150 degrees and then set it at the mixing valve at 125 and then the shower at 112degrees. You will get more than 40 gallons from this tank. Of course we have strict codes here pertaining to hot water. Of course the proper size feed has to becoming off the heater also. Any standing water in hot water tank under 130 degress is susceptible to legionnaires disease and this bacteria can only be killed off at water that is above 140 degrees!! But, that is a whole nother thread and issue that will soon hitting everone state by state.:cheesygri

I don't see a 40 gallon tank providing a hot shower for a couple for an hour in a his and hers shower retreat using 2 main heads and 8 body jets at the same time, no matter how hot you turn up that tank. (Maybe you aren't reading between the lines here, but the majority of my customers aren't interested in a shower like this just to get their hair clean, they are interested in it for relaxation, hydro-therapy - and F#cking!) - along those lines if you think women only use those hand sprayers in a roman bath filler set or a removable/sliding hand sprayer in these showers only for cleaning the tub or shower you're naive.:innocent:

In addition do you really recommend to your customers to turn a tank up to 150 degrees when it is also feeding kitchen and bathroom hand faucets?

140 degree water is listed as being able to cause burns to a child's hands in less than 5 seconds of exposure.

There is no way in the world I am going to set up a system that is going to require it to work properly only by turning up water to that temperature. Not only is the financial liability simply ridiculous, but morally I wouldn't want to be any part of it.

I'm beginning to suspect that nobody on this forum has actually set up one of these systems with the goal in mind of their customer actually being able to use one of these systems to its full potential, please prove me wrong.

Mike Finley · Oct 23, 2005

Tom R said:
???

What part of that sentence is confusing you?

I can redily attribute my customers willingness to do business with me and pay a preimum over the competition for my services because not only do I offer consultation based on features and benefits, knowledge of what works, or doesn't in conjunction with avaiable options but I combine that with being able to deliver with confidence as promised with no excuses.

These sales are made easier because unfortunately people like Chris here exist and run their business around "should bes" and are shooting themselves in the foot every time they meet a customer by being unprepared and guessing.

plumguy · Oct 23, 2005

Mike Finley said:
I don't see a 40 gallon tank providing a hot shower for a couple for an hour in a his and hers shower retreat using 2 main heads and 8 body jets at the same time, no matter how hot you turn up that tank.

In addition do you really recommend to your customers to turn a tank up to 150 degrees when it is also feeding kitchen and bathroom hand faucets? 140 degree water is listed as being able to cause burns to a child's hands in less than 5 seconds of exposure.

There is no way in the world I am going to set up a system that is going to require it to work properly only by turning up water to that temperature. Not only is the financial liability simply ridiculous, but morally I wouldn't want to be any part of it.

I'm beginning to suspect that nobody on this forum has actually set up one of these systems with the goal in mind of their customer actually being able to use one of these systems to its full potential, please prove me wrong.

Prove you wrong! Ok, why don't you read my post again.:thumbsup: And where it says 125 degrees that is the water being supplied to faucets that don't need anti-scald protection. :wallbash: All showers have to then be adjusted to 110-112 dergrees max. Also, that includes any personal handhelds in a whirlpool, a personal is considered a shower and must be protected.

And then read my other post about customer's needs and requirements for water, which is how one determines the proper system. I promise that I'll start reading you're posts.:cheesygri

And by the way if you don't think you get more water out of a heater with a mixing valve(which is there for accuracy to control temp) then you must be comparing it to the thermostat or aquastats that are supplied with the unit and are not dependable that my fellow member is SCARY!!!

Question about shower system...

Knyte260

Tom R

Mike Finley

Knyte260

Knyte260

Mike Finley

Mike Finley

Teetorbilt

Knyte260

Teetorbilt

plumguy

Mike Finley

Tom R

plumguy

Mike Finley

Tom R

plumguy

Mike Finley

Mike Finley

plumguy

Top Contributors this Month

Recommended Communities