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Mikebuild

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Hey all,

I've wondered this for some time ... when you cut your starter asphalt shingles, do you use the "cuts/scrapes" for starter, as well? The scrap measures pretty close to the starter measurements. Whats the harm in doing this?

Thanks.
 
If it's a laminate the two pieces are actually equal.

Cut the starter and save the other half to finish the top of the run.

Or use both top and bottom as starters. This isn't the way I do it, but a guy that worked for me a long time (long time on his own since) does this and I can't really see a fault in it.



What's below expands on the idea, but goes beyond the OP topic :whistling

Mechanics may not care about waste much as there's not much in it for them. Subs aren't inclined to watch waste too much either if they are working by the piece.

The real watch dog is the one who is paying to get the job done and has already set the price. So on a fixed price job any usable material that's otherwise scrap is a savings.

Valley and hip cuts can be used in a similar way, but with the current valley trend in architectural laminates, there isn't a valley cut. If a high end shingle like a CertainTeed Grand Manor is being used, saving valley cuts to fill in hips should be SOP. Same with starter and top course.

This kind of material management works for many trades....vinyl gable/roof slope cuts, roof and deck sheathing, some plank and strip flooring.....,etc.

You would even think drywallers would employ these ideas, but the hangers (subs) around me are the most wasteful bunch one could imagine. I am sure that's a direct result of the square foot price and no real material responsibility.

Last, some scrap is just that. When the labor to save costs more than the material saved, scrap it.
 
If it's a laminate the two pieces are actually equal.

Cut the starter and save the other half to finish the top of the run.

Or use both top and bottom as starters. This isn't the way I do it, but a guy that worked for me a long time (long time on his own since) does this and I can't really see a fault in it.



What's below expands on the idea, but goes beyond the OP topic :whistling

Mechanics may not care about waste much as there's not much in it for them. Subs aren't inclined to watch waste too much either if they are working by the piece.

The real watch dog is the one who is paying to get the job done and has already set the price. So on a fixed price job any usable material that's otherwise scrap is a savings.

Valley and hip cuts can be used in a similar way, but with the current valley trend in architectural laminates, there isn't a valley cut. If a high end shingle like a CertainTeed Grand Manor is being used, saving valley cuts to fill in hips should be SOP. Same with starter and top course.

This kind of material management works for many trades....vinyl gable/roof slope cuts, roof and deck sheathing, some plank and strip flooring.....,etc.

You would even think drywallers would employ these ideas, but the hangers (subs) around me are the most wasteful bunch one could imagine. I am sure that's a direct result of the square foot price and no real material responsibility.

Last, some scrap is just that. When the labor to save costs more than the material saved, scrap it.
That's how we do it, cut the shingle in half, use the 'top' of the shingle for starters and the 'bottom' for finishers at the top. I tried explaining that to another roofer here, he just said he would pay for the starter shingle because that seemed like a lot of extra work. At the end of the roof they were cutting shingles in half to put on finishers...I told him to keep the top half for starters on the next job and there wasn't any more work involved...he looked at me like I had a third horn growing out of my head. Oh well, shingle companies make extra cash on stuff like that.
 
That's how we do it, cut the shingle in half, use the 'top' of the shingle for starters and the 'bottom' for finishers at the top. I tried explaining that to another roofer here, he just said he would pay for the starter shingle because that seemed like a lot of extra work. At the end of the roof they were cutting shingles in half to put on finishers...I told him to keep the top half for starters on the next job and there wasn't any more work involved...he looked at me like I had a third horn growing out of my head. Oh well, shingle companies make extra cash on stuff like that.
That's more sad than funny that some folks can't see how to make time and money while employing good material management.

Rip open a bundle and cut the whole thing. A stack of starters and a stack of finishers. What's that like 3 minutes? If I bought a bundle of starter shingles ($20?) and threw away the the cut offs at the top of the run I guess I would be out $20 less the cost of a worker for 3 minutes. Forget it. That's too complicated to figure out.


So what? You already have two horns growing out of your head?:laughing:
 
It depends on what type of shingles you are using.

3 in 1 (3 tab shingles) Cut off the tabs. I save them in case they work at the top. Lay it down so the adhesive is at the bottom. We used to turn a shingle upside down, but you don't get the adhesive to seal down the bottom row of shingles. Of course I've never seen shingles blow off from the bottom course.

Architectural shingles. Yes, cut off the bottom,right at the seam. Save the bottom to re-use at the top. The Architectural shingles have the adhesive on the underneath side of the tabs so you will have adhesive holding it down.

To complicate things, they make shingle starter in rolls. That's what I use. It is like a small roll of ice and water with an adhesive strip on it. Sticks to the drip edge and then holds down the first row of shingles.
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
Very good points, good info. But what I actually was referring to was the cuts from the course starting shingles. (I'm probably not using the correct terminology). When you lay your first coarse, its with a full shingle. The second coarse begins 5 5/8" shorter, the next 11 1/4" shorter ( and so on). Each coarses cut/scrap, is very close to being the correct length, as to be used as a coarse starter peice itself ... What would be the downside in doing this?
 
I know what you mean. Other than not being exactly right in length measurement. Nothing that I can see.

If your starter shingles aren't the right length, it can cause the pattern to look weird, in the middle of the roof. I usually see it when guys start in the valley and ignore the starter measurements.

Honestly I've done alot of shingles this way. It just seems like a waste to save the cut off, in case it works out for the other side of the roof.

As far as cutting them on the ground or the roof, the same applies.
 
Very good points, good info. But what I actually was referring to was the cuts from the course starting shingles. (I'm probably not using the correct terminology). When you lay your first coarse, its with a full shingle. The second coarse begins 5 5/8" shorter, the next 11 1/4" shorter ( and so on). Each coarses cut/scrap, is very close to being the correct length, as to be used as a coarse starter peice itself ... What would be the downside in doing this?
I'm not sure we're referring to the same thing, but we almost always try to have a factory edge along the eve of the house...so your starter gets cut, then you can typically use the drop from that shingle on the other end of the roof (unless it shoots into a valley). Yes, you still have to trim it to fit and the drop may not work on that coarse, but we use the drop from the starter on the other side of the roof...even if sometimes they're just spacers before getting into the valley to make sure you have enough lap in the valley.
 
Old school calls them "books" or "starter books". The shingles that create the step pattern.

MOST typical architectural laminates have some cut off pattern like full, full less 10-1/2", full less 19" , etc. Honestly I have found that as long as each cut butt seam is offset by 6" or more, it's go time. Stray from the wrapper directions at your own risk :whistling

I have done pre-cut "books" and I've cut them in place as well. We have done apartments where I cut through whole bundles at a time with a powered cut off saw to make "books" :eek: One needs the right blade, but it's really fast, really fast. But that was a situation where we had enormous runs, and lot's of them.

And we start a full shingle, cut off about 6"(save), cut off about 12"(save), cut shingle in half (nail on half, save half), nail on 12" piece, nail on 6" piece, drop to bottom of run. Shingle up to rake and repeat the cut process using the left over half every other time. Or just have a book at the rake edge every time you hit it.

Sometimes I cut these books in advance. It is actually faster this way if you work it into the routine. The guy running the step never has to get out his knife and just stays down shingling. Like I said if you work it into the routine. You don't want the crew standing around waiting the for the "books" to be cut. In practice, typical residential roof, they are more likely to be cut as you go.

As far as making straight cuts for the rake, well each guy handles a knife a little differently and sloppy edge cuts are unacceptable so it's usually a better mechanic starting on a rake.

If they get cut in advance I use a straight blade and cut the back of the shingle using another shingle as a straight edge guide. Usually I try and do enough "books" to complete the whole rake before the guns start bangin'. In warmer weather a hook blade from the front of the shingle works fine.

Following the exact measurements for the cut offs given on the wrapper might make some feel better. If they are followed, the cut offs can be saved to fill in the opposite rake as the side is completed. Since I have already 'splained how I do it, filling in the opposite side is, full shingle cut to fit (save cut off), full shingle cut to fit (save cut off),etc. As soon as a cut off fits to finish a row it's used. Then follow with the exact same procedure. I can do the side of a gable roof with almost zero waste, I mean almost zero.

You can step off a valley too, but usually the step off runs differently than the actual valley angle. Following the valley exactly doesn't allow enough offset.

Recently did a metal roof on a job where the shingle crew (not mine) installed an IKO Royal Estate. This is a laminate, but has a pattern that has irregularly spaced cut outs. On a shingle like this it's best to follow the exact layout specs from the manufacturer. The shingler did not. There were a lot of stacked lines going up the roof and it looked awful. Well when I looked at the product on the IKO website, I found they look like crap on their promo pics as well :laughing: Never liked IKO anyway.

So know your product and its limitations.
 
I'll use whatever I got got laying around...old shingles, rolls or bundled starters.
 

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The first guy I worked for away from family used roll roofing cut into strips. It was fast. I have always used leftover bundles from previous work. In more recent times now that metric is the standard I have been breaking the habit and buying the starters. It's very efficient as far as footage and weight.
 
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