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Sheathing Rotted Away Behind Brick

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awestbro

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Masonry Question, Lumber Question or Both?

I visited a potential job yesterday in Nola. The job is a multifamily rehab, the buildings have already been gutted and all that is left is studs and the exterior shell. Based on our walkthrough we noticed quite a bit of water damage so several studs and plates will for sure need to be replaced...pretty simple fix.


The brick seems to be a big issue. Just for reference the buildings were built in 1973. It appears that the sheathing is labeled as Temple IB Insulated Sheathing...(I'm not familiar with it or what its composed of).

In some areas the brick has separated from the walls, I assume the brick ties have pulled out from the studs bricks or both. How would you fix that?

The major issue is one where the sheathing behind the brick is completely gone! You could see the black sheathing in some areas and it looked like in good condition. In another area I would see a grey/white sheathing and it would be super brittle and would just fall down if kicked. And then there were other areas where there was no sheathing at all. We're at a loss on what to do to fix it? Is it a complete tear down or is there a way to fix it?
 

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#2 ·
If it fell down...where is it? Did you vacuum up a lot of junk or what?

If it were me I think I'd be pulling it down if the masonry is bad and you're worried about it falling away. In theory you could pull out a brick at each stud every 2 feet high install a tie and relay it but I don't think it would have a huge amount of strength, not that it really needs any. I think you can also put in a helical fastener through the mortar into a stud but I'm not familiar with it. I would guess that at the least it would have to be installed at a downward angle. No idea how to reinstall sheathing and weather barrier though...maybe have to do it on the inside
 
#10 · (Edited)
If you don't resheath, wrap, and flash, you'll have the same water problems as before. Is there another story above?

Someone is going to have to get some shear protection on those walls before doing any brick demo, else that thing is going to flop right down and kill some people. Right now the brick is the shear protection.
 
#11 ·
Is it just me or some of those studs look brand new? The later pictures show approximately age correct studs, but the first ones look like new production. Even the joists look new, and it looks like it could be load bearing. No sheathing is [probably why your studs look all wavy.

Usually not cost effective to reuse your own brick, unless its a period specific restoration job. You can send it off to get reclaimed and they will resurface, clean, and prepare brick for reuse.

Who knows what other crap is going on there. Its a muti family rehab, sometimes easier to start from new.

But if it was my unit I was flipping or investing, I'd check to see the possibility of shifting the weight off the exterior load bearing walls, and then reframe/sheth from the inside, or even just demo the brick, start over from there.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Andy

Were these walls insulated?

Which direction do the worst walls face?

Here is a little history on fiberboard sheathings.
http://inspectapedia.com/structure/Fiberboard_Sheathing.htm

Back in 73 a lot of buildings were built without a WRB (weather resistant barrier). Is there any indication of a black paper over the wall sheathing?

The photos show a lot of mortar squeeze out that probably came in contact with the fiberboard. I also think I see light thru a few mortar joints which is a good path for moisture. A masonry wall needs to be drained. It is a rain screen and moisture is going to get behind the brick in a couple of ways. Moisture will work its thru the mortar as it is a hygroscopic material. Couple that with solar vapor drive and you can see why we need a complete drain plane and weep system to handle all of this moisture. As the materials we build with have become more moisture sensitive it is increasingly important that the masonry assemblies be drained. When mortar physically touches the sheathing or the WRB it sets up a capillary action and allow the transport of moisture thru the WRB and into the wall sheathing promoting the rapid decay of such materials. A lot of this has to do with climate and rainfall. The areas in climate zone 5 are a little more prone to worse damage and degradation because of the freeze/thaw that is experienced.

I am sure that on these buildings there are no weep systems and maybe no felt paper. It seems that somewhere in the 70’s a lot of “old timer” methods were disregarded. Some of that is good but it left the door wide open to a lot of poor building methods and practices. If the wall sheathing had been OSB instead of fiberboard and plywood the damage would not have taken as long.

What is your plan of action on remediation?

Nola, I take it New Orleans. Do you know who Bill Robinson is? He does a lot of consulting on these types of problems and might be in your area. I can put you in touch if you want.
 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
Mark Parlee said:
Andy

Were these walls insulated?

Which direction do the worst walls face?

Here is a little history on fiberboard sheathings.
http://inspectapedia.com/structure/Fiberboard_Sheathing.htm

Back in 73 a lot of buildings were built without a WRB (weather resistant barrier). Is there any indication of a black paper over the wall sheathing?

The photos show a lot of mortar squeeze out that probably came in contact with the fiberboard. I also think I see light thru a few mortar joints which is a good path for moisture. A masonry wall needs to be drained. It is a rain screen and moisture is going to get behind the brick in a couple of ways. Moisture will work its thru the mortar as it is a hygroscopic material. Couple that with solar vapor drive and you can see why we need a complete drain plane and weep system to handle all of this moisture. As the materials we build with have become more moisture sensitive it is increasingly important that the masonry assemblies be drained. When mortar physically touches the sheathing or the WRB it sets up a capillary action and allow the transport of moisture thru the WRB and into the wall sheathing promoting the rapid decay of such materials. A lot of this has to do with climate and rainfall. The areas in climate zone 5 are a little more prone to worse damage and degradation because of the freeze/thaw that is experienced.

I am sure that on these buildings there are no weep systems and maybe no felt paper. It seems that somewhere in the 70’s a lot of “old timer” methods were disregarded. Some of that is good but it left the door wide open to a lot of poor building methods and practices. If the wall sheathing had been OSB instead of fiberboard and plywood the damage would not have taken as long.

What is your plan of action on remediation?

Nola, I take it New Orleans. Do you know who Bill Robinson is? He does a lot of consulting on these types of problems and might be in your area. I can put you in touch if you want.
Click to expand...

Great information. To answer some of the questions, I didn't seen any consistency with what directions were the worst. All the walls where in bad shape but the north and south walls probably had the most sheathing missing. The sheathing appeared to have felt on both sides. And on the inside layer of felt it appears there was fiberglass insulation stuck to the sheathing that was still in tack. I didn't see any weep holes now that I think of it.

Will this be an architects recommendation or because people are talking about how the building could get very unstable if the brick is removed, would it be an engineer recommendation?
 
#14 ·
awestbro said:
Great information. To answer some of the questions, I didn't seen any consistency with what directions were the worst. All the walls where in bad shape but the north and south walls probably had the most sheathing missing. The sheathing appeared to have felt on both sides. And on the inside layer of felt it appears there was fiberglass insulation stuck to the sheathing that was still in tack. I didn't see any weep holes now that I think of it.

Will this be an architects recommendation or because people are talking about how the building could get very unstable if the brick is removed, would it be an engineer recommendation?
Click to expand...
Its neither. If you are concerned, you should be getting an architect or an engineer.
 
#15 ·
Shear the walls from the inside and proceed with removing the brick....

Re brick and drywall right over the extra shear.....

Shoot, I would even toss in a few holddowns to make the owner feel all warm and fuuzzy :laughing:
 
#16 ·
Like it or not you need to tell your client you need to hire a chemist and/or Industrial Hygienist that specializes in IAQ, fungi, mold, to develop a cause and corrective action plan. Fungi and mold cannot be treated it has to be completely removed, and a plan in place to not put a food back in the assembly along with moisture and temp. It is FAR from being just about moisture that causes this. You need professional help, not people that have no experience or knowledge on what spores are present and how they germinated. That can happen in less than 48 hours in your "new design" if you do not know what your are doing.

At a minimum tear it all effected areas out and spray a 10:1 mix of water/borax (not boron acid) you get as a laundry detergent at Walmart...if is an anti-fungi and fire retardant. A chemist that understands the spore might help in keeping it from all being torn out. Maybe, ask around.
 
#17 ·
TLP said:
Like it or not you need to tell your client you need to hire a chemist and/or Industrial Hygienist that specializes in IAQ, fungi, mold, to develop a cause and corrective action plan. Fungi and mold cannot be treated it has to be completely removed, and a plan in place to not put a food back in the assembly along with moisture and temp. It is FAR from being just about moisture that causes this. You need professional help, not people that have no experience or knowledge on what spores are present and how they germinated. That can happen in less than 48 hours in your "new design" if you do not know what your are doing.

At a minimum tear it all effected areas out and spray a 10:1 mix of water/borax (not boron acid) you get as a laundry detergent at Walmart...if is an anti-fungi and fire retardant. A chemist that understands the spore might help in keeping it from all being torn out. Maybe, ask around.
Click to expand...
I'm kind of laughing, and thinking that you must be a mold consultant, because when I look at that situation, spraying Borax isn't what comes to mind.
 
#19 ·
All the black is not necessarily black mold.
Out of the hundreds of thousands of molds there are about six colors and black happens to be one of them. There are a lot of black colored molds. The one we are mostly worried about is stachy. There is more than one strain of stachy.

Test it before you say it all has to go
 
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