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osborn

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Question for you carpet guys. Is the waste calculated into your square yard price? I never have to deal with carpet usually. The home owner has always taken that on. I am now doing some government funded rehabs, so I must deal with everything. I calculated the carpet price myself. Whe I got my quote it was almost 20 yards more. He told me it was because of the waste, and less seams. That makes sense to me. I mean if I were to do it I wouldnt want to deal with all the seams. I can understand cut more scrap and make less seams. Just want a second opinion from you guys.
Thanks ,
Bob
 
#2 ·
I'm not a carpet installer, but I did measure all the jobs for our retail store over a 5 year period.

First of all, the carpet usually is run in the same direction (pile has to face same direction, or seams will be noticable) with as few seams as possible. Also, it's a good idea to put the seams into lower traffic areas of the rooms. All contiguous rooms need to be run the same direction, preferably with the pile facing the front door (not always possible) or a source of light.

It would help if you told us how large the total carpeted area is, otherwise it's hard to say whether 20 yards is a lot of waste or not.
 
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#3 ·
Being a broadloom product, your going to have waste, unlike a tile square or single board in hard surface flooring. Add a pattern to the mix, and there is more waste to make the pattern repeat.


Yes, it has always been industry standard to charge for waste. Not exact wall to wall sq.footage.
 
#5 ·
When you install carpet you charge for the amount of material you have to handle. Waste is harder to understand with carpet, because it is usually a 12 foot wide product. Every linear foot, is really 1.33 yds, but you need that excess to properly install the job. Do you really want 15 cross seams in a 12x20 room? Do you think I am going to spend an hour making 15 cross seams because you want to save 30 bucks on material?


osborn said:
Question for you carpet guys. Is the waste calculated into your square yard price? I never have to deal with carpet usually. The home owner has always taken that on. I am now doing some government funded rehabs, so I must deal with everything. I calculated the carpet price myself. Whe I got my quote it was almost 20 yards more. He told me it was because of the waste, and less seams. That makes sense to me. I mean if I were to do it I wouldnt want to deal with all the seams. I can understand cut more scrap and make less seams. Just want a second opinion from you guys.
Thanks ,
Bob
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#6 ·
Weird, I woke up thinking about this - probably because I haven't measured for carpet in about 10 years and got all excited about it :whistling.

Remember also that you have to measure for doorways, which adds 3+/- inches x 12 ft to a room (for 12ft goods). This can add up to about .333 yd per room which has a doorway.

I always loved it when an installer would cross seam under a bed using 90 degree angles (cannot remember the terminology for this - but it's when the installer does not run the pile in the same direction at the seams in order to save time), figuring that no-one would ever know. Watch out for this by looking at the seams in the back of the rooms. If you see the pile changing direction, the installer took a short cut. If you don't know the installer, let them know you'll be watching out for this, because if your customer notices it, you'll be in trouble.
 
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#9 ·
Floordude,

Ok, I have a confession to make.

I have installed carpet. But I don't consider myself a pro by any means (too slow to make any money doing it- it's an art, in addition to being a science).

The only reason I know about 1/4 turns, is because I learned how to do it on certain carpets, without it being noticeable (it can save the installer a lot of time in some situations).

If one can get away with it, all power to them- there is no harm done if it looks good.
 
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#10 ·
The best thing you can do is tag-a-long with an installer for a while. He/she can show you different tricks they have learned over the years. When learning anything new, nothing beats real world experience.

That said, here is what you can do for a 15X15 room. Taking into account there is no closet.(Family room, maybe) You will need a 12X15'-6" piece for the first "drop". Next is your fill piece. You can use use an additional 12X4' piece to "T" seam the fill. For a total of a 12X19'-6" cut. This will make four seams in the room. You could order more to make less seams, but more material=more money. It is really up to the homeowner if they want more seams. The price will pretty much be the same, depending on cost of the carpet. My subs charge more if they have to piece the room together. And if it's more materials, it's less labor, but more money for materials. More often than not, you will have more rooms and be able to utilize waste for other fills, cutting down on "T" seams. Which all installers prefer!!

But I highly suggest you hang out with an installer on quite a few of their measures. You'll be happy you did so. If you have time, you might want to hang out with them for the whole day. Seeing what installers go through in a day can be a real eye opener.

Hope this helped. Good luck.
 
#11 · (Edited)
When I'm figuring my cost to do a carpet job, I figure the first 6 feet of seams are @ no extra cost, but after that I figure a per linear foot for seams. Patterns and difficult carpet, are going to cost more to seam then a base grade cutpile. Time is money.

If you have 1100 sq.ft. and all drops, separated with tile or other flooring, without any seam, it is going to take less time, and materials, then the same sq.footage, with a long seam in every room or even doorway seams.

The CFI Standard for "T" seams is no more then 2 per room.(Certified Floorcovering Installers Assoc.)

In my young and stupid days, I was forced to put as many as 12 "T" seams down a room, because they(the retailer) lowballed the bid, to get the job. There was no extra for the extra labor and liability. I instituded a per linear foot charge, or someone else could do it. I sat at home for weeks, yet the call came to go fix the mess made while I was cooling off and the hacks where doing it. I got my per linear foot charge eventually, when they saw the light.

The Carpet & Rug Institute, is the industry standard(all tufted carpet manufacturers participate). Download the CRI-105 for residencial, and CRI 104 for commercial standards. It is the bible. Cut a corner, and CRI standards will find it, and you will be correcting and even replacing carpet, if uncorrectable.
 
#12 ·
Floordude said:
The industry Standard for "T" seams is no more then 2 per room.


Maybe you need to read the bible again.

CRI states (and I quote)

Measuring and Planning

All aspects of the installation should be coordinated. Correct measurements and a detailed diagram with a cut list are essential before the installation can be professionally planned, estimated, or completed.

Planning, layout, execution of work, and, especially, seam placement decisions must reflect the wishes of the consumer, be consistant with the industry standards, and should include input from the carpet dealer and installer.

Seams- Seams shall be kept to a minimum and positioned as recommended where possible.
*Seams run the lenght of the room
*Main traffic runs parallel to, rather than across, the seam
*Natural light does not strike across the seam
*Seam are away from areas subjected to pivoting traffic
*Seams are not perpendicular to doorway openings

Nowhere in the handbook does it say no more than 2 "T" seams in a room.

So if the customer wants to save a little money and have 12 seam in the room, so be it. The customer will be charged for the additional work.

Floordude, PLEASE, PLEASE stop posting things you have no idea about. It is a complete disservice to the person asking for real help.

Anyone can read this by downloading the handbook. (It's free)
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#13 ·
The basic point is a customer is not really saving any money by putting 12 'cross' seams in a room. They are basically getting bad advice from a GC, or a salesperson. If the only way they can afford the job is to put that many seams in a room, the salesperson, should show them a less expensive product. I worked for one guy he sent me out with a 12' x 27' piece of carpet to install in a room that was 9' x 27', i billed him for 36 yards, he paid me for 27 yards of labor. I never worked for him again. ( do you really think he sold the customer 27 yards of carpet, or did he sell the customer 36 yards of carpet, do you really think he sold the customer 27 yards of pad and 27 yards of labor?)

What some people fail to comprehend here, is the Installer is ultimately responsible for how the job comes out. If the customer wants 12 cross seams in a 13 by 13 room, I am not doing the job. If they want to pay me for the extra time, I will consider it, but for the most part it is not worth it. Good business sense, is the ability to tell the end consumer, how the job should be done, we are the Pro's, not them. Is their input valuable, yes, until they decide to rearrange their furniture, and suddenly have complaints.

In the long run the extra dollars a customer pays to have the job done right the first time, makes up for the many dollars YOU will pay to go back again and again.

While I am thinking of it, I did work for one guy who got so tired of pole marks, he added 18 inches per cut, all he had to do was show the customer the crush marks and they would pay for the extra material.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Angus said:
If the installer flake and not come back, I, the store owner still have to take care of the problem on my dime.
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If you hired a respectable legally run business to do your subcontracting, instead of hiring Joe Blow installer as an employee, and calling him a sub to save you on costs involved with having an actual employee, you would not have those problems. As with any business that doesn't hold their end of the contract, it is up to you to pursue legal action, against the responsible party. If you refuse to do that, because it is hard to get blood from a turnip, that is your risk and cost of doing business in the manner you chose.. I'm sure you hold a retainage back, don't you???
 
#16 ·
Angus said:
Demonseed said:
What some people fail to comprehend here, is the Installer is ultimately responsible for how the job comes out.

I agree with all you said,except for the above. If the installer flake and not come back, I, the store owner still have to take care of the problem on my dime.
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And when yiou have an eight K install, and the installer calls saying, you guys messed up, there is no way this job is going in.....I know from experience, you will say DO IT ANYWAY. The difference is, I am smart enough to hear those words and say, get someone else to do the job.

I Have been on both sides of the fence, sales and installation. If you are sending guys out on Jobs with 12 cross seams in a room, I do not blame them for taking off. If you, AND THE PEOPLE WORKING FOR YOU. think that is the right way to do a job, you should quit while you are ahead.
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#17 · (Edited)
Are you guys not reading my post? I SAID, THE INSTALLER GETS PAID MORE FOR THE EXTRA LABOR. So it is worth it to do the job. And, If, you are a good installer, your seams should not fail. So, you should not be scared to do it. What if that's the only job you have set up for the day? Are you going to turn down work because the job will take longer? You could make a couple hundred dollars for a few hours work.

When I was installing, I never turned any job down. I had bills to pay, and sitting at home would not get those bills paid.

And by the way floordude, why are saying anything about carpet? You are a wood installer, right? And what? Nothing to say about the CRI and 2 seams per room? Didn't think so.
 
#18 · (Edited)
I can install all flooring, including coatings, and do it all quite well. I am diversified. I also hold certifications, from practically all flooring trade organizations, and manufacturers, including failure investigations & consulting.

I also hold a certified welding and coating failure inspection license

I hold a degree in 2 stroke engine technology

I hold a Cert for hunting guide services


I wear many hats... Wood flooring, because of its growing popularity, has become very profitable, but it is not the only thing I'm capable of installing to standards.

I edited the above post. It is not CRI, it is CFI that has a 3 piece fill standard, which I have taken an oath to abide by. Ask Jim Walker or John Namba, Heck your in CO., ask Kelly Huddleson.
 
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Floordude
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