Arc Fault Circuit Protection & Tamperproof Receptacles - Is This Overkill?

Speedy Petey · Apr 8, 2014

CarpenterSFO said:
I can still feel that current pulsing through my chest on its way down to the floor on its way to ground.

cwatbay · Apr 8, 2014

CarpenterSFO said:
Back in the 70s, when I was a teenager with a full head of hair, I was standing in the family bathroom with a hair dryer. Well, it was wet, and I got zapped. For about 20 seconds I lurched around that bathroom, trying to get rid of that darn dryer. But I couldn't unclench my hand. I can still feel that current pulsing through my chest on its way down to the floor on its way to ground. Eventually I lurched away hard enough to unplug that thing. Even though I don't have much use for hair dryers any more, I'm a big fan of GFCIs.

Glad to see that episode did not have permanent affects....right Bob??:whistling

CarpenterSFO · Apr 8, 2014

cwatbay said:
Glad to see that episode did not have permanent affects....right Bob??:whistling

I sure am the effects permanent weren't.

aptpupil · Apr 8, 2014

CarpenterSFO said:
:laughing:
I'm afraid my dad gets the credit. All along I've been the spitting image of him at the same age.

Hair loss gets passed on through the maternal genes.

skyhook · Apr 8, 2014

aptpupil said:
Hair loss gets passed on through the maternal genes.

Being an electrician will make you grow more hair.

CarpenterSFO · Apr 8, 2014

Speedy Petey said:

I accept your condemnation, and stand by the poetic license.

smalpierre · Apr 9, 2014

I've had AFCI's trip out when a customer fired up a vacuum. They had to plug in to the hall outlet to vac the bedrooms. Motors with brushes arc. Total BS.

The again I've had a house nearly burn down with me in it because of an arcing cord.

smalpierre · Apr 9, 2014

CarpenterSFO said:
I accept your condemnation, and stand by the poetic license.

Dude! you're Capt. Jean Luc Picard!!! Awesome :clap:

Fault Current · Apr 9, 2014

Why

These type of code changes are definitely industry driven.

It's the insurance industry together with manufacturers. Since the code exists mainly due to pressure from insurance companies looking to cut their losses, having a requirement that limits their liability is a major benefit.

Plus, why would the AFCI industry have been created if not for this requirement?

smalpierre · Apr 9, 2014

do they make afci's that vacs dont trip yet?

MTN REMODEL LLC · Apr 9, 2014

acustom said:
Before I wrote this postt, I had spoken with a couple of electrical inspectors from Building and Safety and they agree with me in that they think that a lot of the new codes (like TR and arc fault circuit breakers) are introduced due to lobbying by the manufacturers. In 2010, I did some calcs and the introduction of tamper proof receptacles and Arc Fault circuits increased the price of building a new home by approx. $7.00 a sq. ft.
So, it's really not meaningless squabble if it opens the door to looking closely at how codes requiring new devices get introduced in the first place.

Probably.... and also if you think about it, our regulatory industry (yes it is an industry in our capitalist society) self promlugates itself by finding increasingly new and greater regulation.

What job would NEC and UPC and IPC have if they were not constantly changing code. THEY WOULD BE OUT OF WORK.

This is not restricted to our trade regulators... it is rampant in our state and federal regulatory industries.

They have to keep finding changes, or they don't have a job.

Certainley safety should be everyones consideration, CONSIDERATION being the operative word. To have every nth degree of safety imposed and legislated on us under the name of "public good" has run rampant in this country.

I do believe in a certain degree of regulation, where there are clear and evident "third party costs" involved.

For instance, pollution has a real effect on everyone, and our future, and in effect without regulation, those that are polluting are not in effect passing the cost of that product/service onto those using it. Those parties are getting a free ride at the cost of third parties.

But look at another favorite of mine, required tire pressure monitoring in our cars. My low tires... my cost... my problem. I already have a $2 tire pressure guage, I don't need the government imposing $100 of TPM on me in this Nanny state......Yes..... I know, that someone might not check their tires and waste some gas which then might cost me some more for energy.

As for TR's, those little plastic plugs (12 for $1) worked fine for my family. And as to AFCI, I would accept the nominal risk that AFCI are designed to protect me from.... Yes, I know... someone needs to protect me from myself, and a firemen might get hurt if they ever have to fight a fire in my home....

I know the adage... if we can save one life it's worth it.... but that is not true... or we would not have cars or airplanes... or electricity for that matter.

I am for safe. I consider it extensively as it relates to me and my family... but I believe in many instances that should be my decision... and yours... not some self-promlugating official to legislate.

acustom · Feb 6, 2015

Speedy Petey said:
In almost three years no one posted this. I was thinking the same thing, and he mentioned it twice!
Someone's math is WAY off.

New codes will push the number even higher, but we are looking at maybe, maybe $2000 more for a full house worth.

I am very curious as to where he got this sq/ft number from. It had to be $.70 sq/ft.
And who bids sq/ft any more anyway?

Yes, I stand corrected.
We don't bid by the foot, but we were looking at the overall requirements, including Title 24 energy saving requirements.
All bathrooms, kitchens, closets LED or fluorescent, tamper proof plugs, etc.

acustom · Feb 6, 2015

I stand corrected by quoting $7.00 a sq/ft

GettingBy · Feb 11, 2015

Not to rain on anybody's parade, but. . .

Maybe - with circuit breakers - you get $1 worth of safety for $1 spent.

AFCIs have false alarms.
GFCIs may introduce a moral hazard, see

Inner10 said:
kids need to learn the traditional way not to stick things in outlets.

I don't see consumer advocates who understand risk/benefit/cost math on the code panels. I see conflicts of interest.

People dying from electrocution is 20x lower than from highway fatalities and nobody raises hell about highway deaths. Electrocution, and possibly house fires of electrical origin that totally destroy a house, is likely 'down in the noise' [as is food poisoning at 5000/yr].

Many people have a 'zero risk bias' so they make great consumers of things that promise electrical safety.

There are books about risk and there are books about the problems of educating the public about risk.

Even Mike Holt seems to question using GFCIs in car washes when there has never been an 'incident'.

aptpupil · Feb 18, 2015

Afcis are annoying as hell. Cutler-hammer ones trip when using tools (new or old) all the time.

GettingBy · Feb 18, 2015

aptpupil said:
Afcis are annoying as hell. Cutler-hammer ones trip when using tools (new or old) all the time.

Also if there is a radio station nearby.

An arc is supposed to be a fourth state of matter beyond solid, liquid or gas. It's 'plasma.'
These AFCIs may never work properly because they try to apply a go/no-go test to something that can never be categorized in this way.

BTW, Siemens makes a device called intelli-arc for troubleshooting these beasts.

Arc Fault Circuit Protection & Tamperproof Receptacles - Is This Overkill?

Speedy Petey

cwatbay

CarpenterSFO

aptpupil

skyhook

CarpenterSFO

smalpierre

smalpierre

Fault Current

smalpierre

MTN REMODEL LLC

acustom

acustom

GettingBy

aptpupil

GettingBy

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