Has anyone ever ran across an architect who provided zero framing attachment details. No fasteners, not cut through, nothing? Im framing a job and sent out an RFI requesting details for ceiling framing. Whether to attach to corrugated deck or to bottom of bar joists and on centers etc etc. He told me that it's my responsibility to design and specify how I am going to build it in the form of shop drawings. He would then approve or disapprove my design? It's basic framing. I'm baffled. Has anyone ever had to do this? I'd just frame it and move on but the inspector wants details signed and sealed at inspections. I've never been asked to do this before.
Framing shop drawings
mikecocozza
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Has anyone ever ran across an architect who provided zero framing attachment details. No fasteners, not cut through, nothing? Im framing a job and sent out an RFI requesting details for ceiling framing. Whether to attach to corrugated deck or to bottom of bar joists and on centers etc etc. He told me that it's my responsibility to design and specify how I am going to build it in the form of shop drawings. He would then approve or disapprove my design? It's basic framing. I'm baffled. Has anyone ever had to do this? I'd just frame it and move on but the inspector wants details signed and sealed at inspections. I've never been asked to do this before.
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This is normal in my books on commercial projects. Even if the architect draws the detail I need to redraw it with the details and submit for his signature/approval
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Mike - I think I know the job you're referring to. I'd suggest you have the Structural Engineer of Record make some interior framing shop drawings / details and submit those to the architect. Additionally, the GC could hire his own structural engineer to give you some shop drawings / details for submittal to the architect. FYI, the architect's office I work for would never pull this game. Either we draw the details or put it in the consultant Structural Engineer's lap...would never ask for the GC to give us a design. Baffling to say the least.mikecocozza said:
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Seriously? Why? Ive never been on a job that was not detailed by the architect or engineer. What are they getting paid to do then?
Specialty items, always require shop drawings. Basic metal framing, is always spec'd on the plans.
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I had one last summer like this. drawings had no detail. I called for a question on the cantileaver deck framing, showed 2 differant ways and he said um im not sure what do you think. I said i think im not the engineer, Im the carpenter!
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This is the problem with architects never having worked a day of construction. I'm a huge advocate for architectural students to have summer jobs doing general construction tasks (ie ***** work) and even working something more specialized for a year such as form work or framing. It will only help you as a designer and ultimately as a registered Architect.mnjconstruction said:
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Release of liabilitymikecocozza said:
Even when following a spec'd plan I've had to literally photocopy the plan and submit as a shop drawing!!! And the funny part is when the guy who drew the plan to begin with reviews his own drawing and starts red marking it prior to approval.
It depends entirely on the quality of the A/E and how much they are getting paid.
I've had some plans that show how to block for crown molding and some plans that don't show a single structural connection detail.
I usually prefer to have less information, as I can do whatever I want (more or less). Rather than a ridiculous detail that shows me through bolting the bottom plate of the second floor, through the floor joist, and into the top plate of the first floor.
I've had some plans that show how to block for crown molding and some plans that don't show a single structural connection detail.
I usually prefer to have less information, as I can do whatever I want (more or less). Rather than a ridiculous detail that shows me through bolting the bottom plate of the second floor, through the floor joist, and into the top plate of the first floor.
I agree with above^^^ Many times they draw a cloud around the thing meaning they don't know:blink: Or builders choose:blink: I get a lot of plans like this. I have some right now and it's for a state HUDD thing?
Then as I study the plans they send me a addendum,,,Oh but not just one but a second and a third:blink: like WTF:blink:
Attachments
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These days I can't get an inspection without the inspector saying, "I'm going to hold approval even though you did it just like the plans, until I get a letter from your engineer saying he's inspected it as well and is satisfied". With inspectors like that. And a plan with no details. And an architect who wants more money for something hes already been paid to do, it's impossible to get a job done. I've got the inspector asking me how I came up with my trakfast pin on centers for top an bottom track attachment for 25ga non load partition walls. Says he won't pass it until he receives a detail. I can't win. Even if I put a whole clip of pins down between each stud I still get "where's the detail?". Amazing.
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It's all pass the buck liability
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Looks like I'll need to take a drafting class or two, go to school to become an engineer and become a certified inspector if I want to get anywhere in this field :thumbup:
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No, if you an engineer you work with regularly hire him, he knows how you like to build it, draws it that way, stamps it and your good to go.
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The final answer I received was the EOR "did not want to specify any framing details, and we (architects) don't provide this service. You will need to hire a specialty engineer to spec all light gauge framing (25 gauge interior non bearing walls and soffits) and submit shop drawings for approval". What a joke.
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I would fire the architect and his consultants. That's deplorable behavior. Sorry you're saddled with this bunch of d-bags.mikecocozza said:
Architects typically don't work for the Contractor on commercial projects.
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True. However in this situation the Contractor has direct influence with the Owner who hired the architect.
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