Vinyl Shake Products (questions from the land of fiber cement)

Tom Struble · Jul 23, 2011

sorry Sean but that h.o. has a point,a bare staple is not the right fastener for it:sad:

im an old man Sean i can't remember what the most ridicules one was,it's all a blur:blink:

SeanInOnt · Jul 23, 2011

Tom Struble said:
sorry Sean but that h.o. has a point,a bare staple is not the right fastener for it:sad:

im an old man Sean i can't remember what the most ridicules one was,it's all a blur:blink:

How so?

Tom Struble · Jul 23, 2011

all the wrb manufactures spec a capped fastener like these

http://www.toolbarn.com/nobrand-136400.html

every time the wrb moves against the leg of the staple the hole will open up more the cap will cover these holes and spread the stress around the fastener

SeanInOnt · Jul 23, 2011

Tom Struble said:
all the wrb manufactures spec a capped fastener like these

http://www.toolbarn.com/nobrand-136400.html

every time the wrb moves against the leg of the staple the hole will open up more the cap will cover these holes and spread the stress around the fastener

Ive seen those Tom...but in reality have you come across many builders who use?...99% of new construction here is wrapped already(aside from gables)...depends who u know/blow and is inspecting...

Prob 80% of what I do is renos...foam w plastic cap nails on wrap...

Are all the builders wrong? ....90 000 to 900 000$ homes going to fail because of this?

A lil FYI...when I have worked for companies...they were paying 10$ sq for wrap.... Maybe why hammertackers were tool of choice?

Tom Struble · Jul 23, 2011

i have done and seen the same Sean but putting tens of thousands of holes in what we want to be an ''air tight'' barrier is counter intuitive...no?

i understand your point,but taking it from the h.o. perspective which way would you like it done

SeanInOnt · Jul 23, 2011

Tom Struble said:
i have done and seen the same Sean but putting tens of thousands of holes in what we want to be an ''air tight'' barrier is counter intuitive...no?

i understand your point,but taking it from the h.o. perspective which way would you like it done

Agreed but shouldn't our siding nails be tar-dipped as well?

loneframer · Jul 23, 2011

Tom Struble said:
but not installed to manu spec....don't yell at me,i didn't write it:tt2:

No argument there Tom. However, it works and I've not had an issue with the practice. I've done the same with double 4 installations too, although, I suppose they are self centering when they run out of lateral movement.

rock16 · Jul 23, 2011

Tom Struble said:
i have done and seen the same Sean but putting tens of thousands of holes in what we want to be an ''air tight'' barrier is counter intuitive...no?

i understand your point,but taking it from the h.o. perspective which way would you like it done

I have had to do a few with 3" strips of vycore over all the studs because the consultant was worried about nails penetrating the WRB. Buildings looked like they were giant prisoner uniforms. Pain in the

Tom Struble · Jul 23, 2011

SeanInOnt said:
Agreed but shouldn't our siding nails be tar-dipped as well?

i think it's more about reducing rather than eliminating....know what i mean?

Tom Struble · Jul 23, 2011

loneframer said:
No argument there Tom. However, it works and I've not had an issue with the practice. I've done the same with double 4 installations too, although, I suppose they are self centering when they run out of lateral movement.

lock or pin nailing is a good technique:thumbsup: i bow to your experience and outstanding workmanship:sweatdrop:

loneframer · Jul 23, 2011

Tom Struble said:
lock or pin nailing is a good technique:thumbsup: i bow to your experience and outstanding workmanship:sweatdrop:

Nah, you da siding master Tom.

I've heard many a time on this board that you can't excel in more than one field. So if I have to pick a field that I excel at, hmmmm, I pick framing. That means that I don't excel at siding and maybe that's why I don't follow all manufacturers best installation recommendations. That would make me a siding rebel I guess.

loneframer · Jul 23, 2011

BTW, I think all those little perforations from staples actually help Tyvek expel trapped moisture to the outside of the wrap, much like "perforated Housewraps".

Tom Struble · Jul 23, 2011

or let in

loneframer · Jul 23, 2011

Tom Struble said:
or let in

Let in, maybe. We both understand that moisture management is a key factor in water holdout. We also both understand that condensation is possible if not guaranteed behind vinyl.

Here's where my logic gravitates to.

Let's say we have a very humid, foggy morning. I've unzipped siding under these conditions and the back of the vinyl was soaked.
Some of that water will rest against the housewrap/WRB, but most will stay on the vinyl by way of surface tension. This will drain out the weeps or panel ends for the most part.

However, when the sun rises, as do the temperatures, that moisture can be driven through the WRB in the form of vapor. Now it's on the wrong side of the WRB and condenses back to liquid form. At this stage of the game, I might prefer no WRB, if it has the characteristics of Tyvek, only allowing moisture to pass in vapor form.

That's just my ill informed, uneducated theory and I'll refrain from calling it a hypothesis by definition of the word. In any event I can't see how cap staples would do anything to prevent moisture intrusion.
If anything, they would be more likely to collect water at the same area we are trying to prevent it from entering the wall cavity.

Tom Struble · Jul 23, 2011

i too have seen condensation on the face of plastic wrb but never behind it but i have seen wet sheathing behind felt most likely because felt will absorb water where plastic will not... hygroscopic,i know,i know

we need to remember plastic wrb is an ''infiltration'' barrier [be it water or air]

the caps are not meant to eliminate water leakage by physically blocking it but to minimize tearing around the staple legs, a small thing some might say but best practice nonetheless

btw imo perforated wrbs are pretty useless

thomasjmarino · Jul 24, 2011

loneframer said:
I can poke an extra nail in faster than I can pick up a drill, not to mention, if I'm on a gable or high up on a wall, it's one less tool on the work table.

Ummm,
Production over Perfection???
With all due respect.

loneframer · Jul 24, 2011

thomasjmarino said:
Ummm,
Production over Perfection???
With all due respect.

Walking the fine line. Surely you agree, both techniques deliver the same end result. The panel is free to expand and contract, yet either the center nail drilled through or lock nailing a slot keeps the panel in the desired position. If you can give me any specific information as to why my way does not serve the intended purpose, I'll be happy to change my ways.

Dirtywhiteboy · Jul 24, 2011

I can't believe you go through this trouble:blink:I feel like such a hack:blink:

So let me get this straight you're locking the vinyl in the center to make the movement equal?? And then placing all the nails, staples in the center of the slots??

Tom Struble · Jul 24, 2011

same purpose is served by locking the midpoint of the panel

and just to throw in a little more hack,these panels respond very well to face-nailing..gasp:blink: and that's all ill say about that

Tom Struble · Jul 24, 2011

Dirtywhiteboy said:
I can't believe you go through this trouble:blink:I feel like such a hack:blink:

So let me get this straight you're locking the vinyl in the center to make the movement equal?? And then placing all the nails, staples in the center of the slots??

yes necessary on ct shake panels and recommended on xl panels

no staples allowed on the shakes

Vinyl Shake Products (questions from the land of fiber cement)

Tom Struble

SeanInOnt

Tom Struble

SeanInOnt

Tom Struble

SeanInOnt

loneframer

rock16

Tom Struble

Tom Struble

loneframer

loneframer

Tom Struble

loneframer

Tom Struble

thomasjmarino

loneframer

Dirtywhiteboy

Tom Struble

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