Tiling - man hours per sq. ft.

PrestigeR&D · Feb 4, 2011

sq ft pricing...

not me..:no: there are WAY to many variables..job condition...environment your having to work in..... pattern style... tile size.. custom moziak work...etc,,etc,,etc,,,, ah... I wouldn't, but - that's up to you..

it is all based on TIME..IMO.

B.

CENTERLINE MV · Feb 4, 2011

I agree with all of you on the square foot pricing. However, the point of starting this thread was to get a ballpark range for a basic rectangular room 16' x 28' using 12 x 12 tiles. I know that if I came up to any of you tile guys out there and simply asked you, "hey, how long do you think it might take you to do this?" I'm sure I'd get answers other than, "I never do square foot pricing" or "square foot pricing is for suckers".

As I said, this isn't for me to price it out, this is for me to get a handle on how long it'd take the "average" tile guy to bang out a floor like this. Even if you said, anywhere between 3 days and 2 weeks. It'd be more helpful to me than, "there are way to many variables"....I mean seriously, why does every simple question on this site have to turn into a pissing contest? Like if someone came up to me & said, "hey Joe, how long do you think it would take to trim out a window?" I could say, "there are way too many variables, linear foot pricing for trim is for suckers" or I could say, depending on the trim package, anywhere from 15 minutes to 45 minutes. Simple question, simple answer---I understand there is no right or wrong. I'm all for debates but lets at least try & be a little more productive about it. You tile guys can argue about how long it might take vs. whether or not square foot pricing makes any sense.

Mike Finley · Feb 4, 2011

I've been presented with many price sheets from tile setters over the years, if you want I can forward one to you to get you started.

I'll just warn you though, they are all in square foot and linear foot pricing. :laughing:

PrestigeR&D · Feb 4, 2011

there are no.....

pissing contests going on Centerline... your getting the full gamut of who thinks what... and why they price there work according to what suits them the best for their business. Angus has his Way ,, HIC has his way... Mike has his way... I have my way; it's all over the place...

of coarse ...as you have figured out.. nothing is stamped... and works for all. you say.. ballpark...how in the hell could we do that..

Again.. and I know you don't want to hear this.. but IMO... there are way to many variables... size of your company.. your overhead.. how fast you work.. how good your craftsmanship is..I could go on.. and on...and on...

hey..
When I started this many,many years ago...I had no book to guide me... I had trips & falls but you eventually learn were to walk and where not to walk.

You had a thread about a book ,, remodeling something for pricing.. if it tells you in there what the expected time allotment is.. start there..

If not... try to figure how much time it will take you.. the only way you will understand pricing is if you actually get your figures together - do the job and see where your profit margins are after ALL your expenses..

I dislike this subject matter because it can not be answered IMO... we all have our own way of doing things and again... the variables... WAY to many....

I am trying to help you... and how I am doing that is by saying -"Get your feet wet" once you do it a few times I KNOW you will have a better handle on where your pricing is and how you want quote your projects..

try not to get frustrated... it's not a pissing war... and don't take things to personal here.. you have to let some opinions wash down your back and take what you want from it...ok:thumbsup:

B.

PrestigeR&D · Feb 4, 2011

no....

don't sent the sq ft sheet Mike... send him the sq inch.... ahhh

:laughing:

I am kidding around centerline....
B.

CENTERLINE MV · Feb 4, 2011

PrestigeR&D said:
pissing contests going on Centerline... your getting the full gamut of who thinks what... and why they price there work according to what suits them the best for their business. Angus has his Way ,, HIC has his way... Mike has his way... I have my way; it's all over the place...

of coarse ...as you have figured out.. nothing is stamped... and works for all. you say.. ballpark...how in the hell could we do that..

Again.. and I know you don't want to hear this.. but IMO... there are way to many variables... size of your company.. your overhead.. how fast you work.. how good your craftsmanship is..I could go on.. and on...and on...

hey..
When I started this many,many years ago...I had no book to guide me... I had trips & falls but you eventually learn were to walk and where not to walk.

You had a thread about a book ,, remodeling something for pricing.. if it tells you in there what the expected time allotment is.. start there..

If not... try to figure how much time it will take you.. the only way you will understand pricing is if you actually get your figures together - do the job and see where your profit margins are after ALL your expenses..

I dislike this subject matter because it can not be answered IMO... we all have our own way of doing things and again... the variables... WAY to many....

I am trying to help you... and how I am doing that is by saying -"Get your feet wet" once you do it a few times I KNOW you will have a better handle on where your pricing is and how you want quote your projects..

try not to get frustrated... it's not a pissing war... and don't take things to personal here.. you have to let some opinions wash down your back and take what you want from it...ok:thumbsup:

B.

Listen, I'm not taking anything personal. But, in all seriousness, you can't even say off the top of your head, "that would take me anywhere between 1 day and 8 months?"---for example.

I can give myself a range, but I figured by asking the "pros" they'd be able to give me their averages based on their experience. That's all, very general, very basic. If 20 tile guys on this forum say they can do it between 5 hours and 20 hours, then I at least have something to go by. I understand the whole variable thing, but again, it's a basic rectangular floor, so assume it's in a gymnasium and that you only have to tile 100 sq. feet right in the middle of the floor with no cuts. Again, very simple question.

thom · Feb 4, 2011

I think many of the guys posting on this thread are being obstinate. The OP made it clear what kind of tile, the area it was going into etc. It wasn't a bathroom, it wasn't a shower, it wasn't a backsplash, it was a large open unfinished room with relatively few cuts. The question was reasonable.

What I want to know, for all you guys who insist you don't use square footage, do you really think any of the rest of us would believe you would not measure a large open space to determine it's size in order to bid this job?

There must be similarities in speed in a large open space amongst different tile setters but the range is relatively narrow or the slow guy is not selling/doing these floors. I've done a lot of open area tile work myself and I've subbed a lot of open area tile work to others in my career. The pricing difference between tile setters was not that great. Every tile setter I've worked with (along with me personally) has measured up the area to be tiled and used that area in their price calculations.

PrestigeR&D · Feb 4, 2011

Centerline....

let's turn this around...seeing as we don't know anything about you .. your work... your work ability.. your expencess... your overhead.. your etc..etc..etc.......

I want you to answer these questions...well start here...

1.) how long IYO do you think it would take you (using your example of 100sqft and no cutting) to install a sub flooring/backer/kerdi- don't know what you are thinking for this ?
2.) how long will it take you to install the tile...?
3.)how long will it take you to grout the tile..?
4.)how long will it take you to seal it (if a natural stone) ?
5.)what would you like to make (profit)- what do you deem is a FMV for your work?

thank you,

B.

PrestigeR&D · Feb 4, 2011

Thom...

thom said:
I think many of the guys posting on this thread are being obstinate. The OP made it clear what kind of tile, the area it was going into etc. It wasn't a bathroom, it wasn't a shower, it wasn't a backsplash, it was a large open unfinished room with relatively few cuts. The question was reasonable.

What I want to know, for all you guys who insist you don't use square footage, do you really think any of the rest of us would believe you would not measure a large open space to determine it's size in order to bid this job?

not at all.. I do measure - But I do NOT go by square foot...that's me.. I can't just take what I charged on the last job and transfer that over to the next job.. different tile... different pattern....different room size... there may be arched cutting involved... you do this enough your numbers are pretty much on....

There must be similarities in speed in a large open space amongst different tile setters but the range is relatively narrow or the slow guy is not selling/doing these floors. I've done a lot of open area tile work myself and I've subbed a lot of open area tile work to others in my career. The pricing difference between tile setters was not that great. Every tile setter I've worked with (along with me personally) has measured up the area to be tiled and used that area in their price calculations.

I have seen pricing in the very.very. low range..somewhere in the middle and then the high end..which is where I like to hang out.. and I am well worth every dollar spent...

As far as speed & quality.....that brings me back to centerline... I have no idea what he is capable of.. honestly.. so how could I tell him to charge X amount of dollars for a job- honestly how could I do that..I could tell him $9.00 a sq ft- mind you I have no idea what type of client he has..is this a business/commercial or residential- are they well off... middle class.. or riding on the brink of foreclosure.. that is why i keep repeating this.. there are way to many variables...

just saying..

B.

CENTERLINE MV · Feb 4, 2011

PrestigeR&D said:
let's turn this around...seeing as we don't know anything about you .. your work... your work ability.. your expencess... your overhead.. your etc..etc..etc.......

I want you to answer these questions...well start here...

1.) how long IYO do you think it would take you (using your example of 100sqft and no cutting) to install a sub flooring/backer/kerdi- don't know what you are thinking for this ?
2.) how long will it take you to install the tile...?
3.)how long will it take you to grout the tile..?
4.)how long will it take you to seal it (if a natural stone) ?
5.)what would you like to make (profit)- what do you deem is a FMV for your work?

thank you,

B.

I know what it would take me to install the backer board. I have real life numbers for that.

All of the tiling I've ever done has been small bathrooms and showers. I know those numbers as well. Same for grout & sealing.

Profit & overhead have NOTHING to do with the OP. I AM TALKING ABOUT HOW LONG IT WOULD TAKE!! You will see that clearly spelled out in the original post.

LET ME MAKE MYSELF PERFECTLY CLEAR, THIS QUESTION IS NOT ABOUT HOW LONG IT WOULD TAKE ME! I know how long it would take me. I'M WONDERING HOW LONG IT WOULD TAKE ALL OF YOU!!! That way I can get a ball park number from a selection of pro's.

I agree with Thom, now you're just being obstinate.

PrestigeR&D · Feb 4, 2011

Ok,,

there is only one problem with that ......"we are not doing the work" -
you are.

I tried to help you...

wish you the best...:thumbsup:

B.

CENTERLINE MV · Feb 4, 2011

PrestigeR&D said:
there is only one problem with that ......"we are not doing the work" -
you are.

I tried to help you...

wish you the best...:thumbsup:

B.

I'm NOT doing the work. If you read the earlier posts, I'm trying to determine how long it takes the pros to do it (on average) so when I start looking at subs, I have a reasonable amount of time it should take. If I get an average from you guys of say 2 or 3 days, & guys here tell me 5 or 6 days then, I can question. Again, very simple, I don't understand why this concept is so tough to grasp.

CarpenterRN · Feb 4, 2011

thom said:
What I want to know, for all you guys who insist you don't use square footage, do you really think any of the rest of us would believe you would not measure a large open space to determine it's size in order to bid this job?

I measure so I know how much tile is needed. Then based on site conditions, difficulty of the job, etc., I estimate how long it will take, like many here have said. I could then turn that into a square foot price, but it wouldn't necessarily be the same for every job unless they were fairly similar.

I don't work as a tile subcontractor anymore. All the tile work I do now is contracted by me, so I don't have to have a square foot price so a GC can bid without me being there. And, a SF price doesn't mean much to my customers. My minimum for a tile only job is 1.5 days. 1 day or less to set, 1/2 day for grouting/clean-up/etc.

----

I guess I don't see what was wrong with my earlier advice to go to HD or similar to see what they charge (they post the labor cost on a sign in the tile section or one could ask.) IIRC, around here, the boxes charge about $6 or so per foot over concrete, straight lay. Then add a couple bucks for cbu/ditra. One wouldn't do bad with those numbers on a basic install and my numbers converted to SF would be fairly close on a larger job, but definitely more on something smaller.

Or, my other suggestion was to build a relationship with a good tilesetter, like Mike has obviously done, and let them figure out the price for you. As a remodeler, building relationships with quality subs can be great asset, especially if you want to get out of doing the work yourself and stick to managing jobs.

PrestigeR&D · Feb 4, 2011

I'll give you very ...

simple answer then... your subs... they will give you a quote- thats how that works..and they will give you a time frame for the project.

:thumbsup:

NEXT!

B.

assets444 · Feb 4, 2011

I remember, a while back, seeing a sign in Home Depot:

$5 per sqft... not sure what it included.

But, I would never give a bid to a customer on what I estimated a job cost if I was planning on subing out the work. I hope that is not your plan. Just get pictures, measurements, and where they can cut in relation to the install area, then email the sub with details. This is where your relationship with your sub is important, do no try to make the job sound easier than it is, or harder. Be very accurate in your descriptions and you will work well together.

Once you and your subs have had some time to work together you will know pretty accurately what he will charge, before he does.

Bonzai · Feb 4, 2011

If you want a number range then to tile a 100sqft square room with minimal cuts in an easily accessible location with basic 12x12 porcelain tile would take me anywhere upwards of a couple of days allowing for prep, installing crack prevention membrane (you mentioned on slab), laying the tile, grouting, sealing grout and cleaning up after myself. I do renovations and not new build so thats why it is potentially much much more cos rarely is it that simple. This doesn't happen in one day cos of curing times and even 2 days is a push.
Whether I do 10sqft or 1000sqft I still have the same number of supply trips, the same number of estimate trips, a disproportionate amount of cleanup and lugging tools around ... So that's one of many reasons I also never price anything by sqft. I never ever give a fixed price site unseen ... In that case it's T&M.

CENTERLINE MV · Feb 4, 2011

assets444 said:
I remember, a while back, seeing a sign in Home Depot:

$5 per sqft... not sure what it included.

But, I would never give a bid to a customer on what I estimated a job cost if I was planning on subing out the work. I hope that is not your plan. Just get pictures, measurements, and where they can cut in relation to the install area, then email the sub with details. This is where your relationship with your sub is important, do no try to make the job sound easier than it is, or harder. Be very accurate in your descriptions and you will work well together.

Once you and your subs have had some time to work together you will know pretty accurately what he will charge, before he does.

Thanks, no that's not what I plan on doing. I have a great relationship with my electrician, plumber, & HVAC guy--they definitely get all of my work. I never had a tile guy (I'm less than a year in business) but am in the process of looking. Which is why I'd like this number b/c if a guy gives me a time estimation of twice as long as it takes, a red flag will go up. That's all I'm looking for. A lot of guys replying seem to think I'm looking for a price. Just looking for a VERY general estimate of how long they think it might take with the info I provided. This info, will help me get a read on who might be taking advantage of the new contractor and who is genuine. Thanks again for your help.

CENTERLINE MV · Feb 4, 2011

Bonzai said:
If you want a number range then to tile a 100sqft square room with minimal cuts in an easily accessible location with basic 12x12 porcelain tile would take me anywhere upwards of a couple of days allowing for prep, installing crack prevention membrane (you mentioned on slab), laying the tile, grouting, sealing grout and cleaning up after myself. I do renovations and not new build so thats why it is potentially much much more cos rarely is it that simple. This doesn't happen in one day cos of curing times and even 2 days is a push.
Whether I do 10sqft or 1000sqft I still have the same number of supply trips, the same number of estimate trips, a disproportionate amount of cleanup and lugging tools around ... So that's one of many reasons I also never price anything by sqft. I never ever give a fixed price site unseen ... In that case it's T&M.

THANK YOU! That's all I'm looking for. "In upwards of a couple days" is exactly what I'm talking about. If I meet a sub to look at the job and he tells me "in upwards of a week" then I know something is up & I can call him on it. Any job I've been on where tiling has been involved on this scale, I hadn't been around to see how long it takes the pro's to do it. So for me, your feedback is very helpful. Thank you.:thumbsup:

Bonzai · Feb 4, 2011

I've seen tile jobs done which were amazing and took the same time as some numbskull who did a real sloppy job but took forever about it ... Time is only one factor. Ask to see their work so you can get a feel for what they can accomplish not just how fast they are.

Bonzai · Feb 4, 2011

I agree with those that do not price by the sqft for all the reasons given, however I also take a slightly different approach to this type of question as I get it all the time from home owners and designers. As long as I give a starting point and qualify this then they have some degree of comfort that I know what I am doing and also it weeds out those that think it should be one of those famous "it'll only take you 10 mins" jobs lol

Tiling - man hours per sq. ft.

PrestigeR&D

CENTERLINE MV

Mike Finley

PrestigeR&D

PrestigeR&D

CENTERLINE MV

thom

PrestigeR&D

PrestigeR&D

CENTERLINE MV

PrestigeR&D

CENTERLINE MV

CarpenterRN

PrestigeR&D

assets444

Bonzai

CENTERLINE MV

CENTERLINE MV

Bonzai

Bonzai

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