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ICF Vs CMU

 
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Old 10-09-2013, 04:49 PM   #21
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


robcon,
I've done several papers on ICF Homes for my major and really believe they're the way to go. The numbers I've found for ICF homes as far as price comparison are .5-25% increase but you have to keep in mind, especially with the geothermal system that you mentioned you're going to recoup your losses much faster. As I've said I've never been on a build with one but I do know that after all the research I've done I plan to go into the ICF Home building business. Especially if you live in an area where High winds are an issue.

Google image search "ICF house post katrina" That should be an excellent example of just how durable these homes are.

Here's a link for some thermal images, Just scroll down some....
http://www.buildingtips.net/ez_vol5isu9.htm


From the research that I've done, its indicated that ICF homes also produce a self extinguising fire, meaning that if (God forbid) there ever was a fire, that the fire would end up smothering itself due to lack of materials to burn, now this s clearly only after its burned out all the interior walls and other combustible materials, but what I've come upon shows that you can rebuild relatively easily after a fire.

As far as the floor systems go, theres a bunch of different options, they make brackets that you place inside before you do the pour that you then nail through to secure the joists. I liked the concept of that system over some of the others, but theres so many that Its tough to say one of them is shades above the others.

Just figured I'd share some of what I've picked up but like I said, I'm no pro I just did a good bit of research on them for my papers, and eventually my thesis paper for my bachelors I think.

Hope that helped. Glad you chose ICF though!!!!

Ryan.

Edit: Don't forget that this can be used for a Passive house If you wanted to look into some of those building techniques.

Ryan.

Last edited by rpm150; 10-09-2013 at 04:51 PM. Reason: forgot something
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:22 PM   #22
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


Just figured I'd share some of what I've picked up but like I said, I'm no pro I just did a good bit of research on them for my papers, and eventually my thesis paper for my bachelors I think.

Ryan.[/QUOTE]


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Old 11-04-2013, 07:19 PM   #23
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


ICF,s vs C.MU

My take,neither,this would be my choice. http://summitbrick.com/index.php/vie...ctural%20Brick

Here are some of the reasons I think a structural brick has the others beat. ICF systems still need some type of exterior finish,with the brick you get the finish built in.You can design the rebar to address any load criteria like an ICF however,you can easily place insulation to suit any climate zone. Having done several structural buildings I can say quite assuredly they are more cost effective than an ICF veneered building.
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Old 11-04-2013, 08:48 PM   #24
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


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ICF,s vs C.MU

My take,neither,this would be my choice. http://summitbrick.com/index.php/vie...ctural%20Brick

Here are some of the reasons I think a structural brick has the others beat. ICF systems still need some type of exterior finish,with the brick you get the finish built in.You can design the rebar to address any load criteria like an ICF however,you can easily place insulation to suit any climate zone. Having done several structural buildings I can say quite assuredly they are more cost effective than an ICF veneered building.
Did you use insulation in the cores or line the inside with foam?
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Old 11-08-2013, 09:47 PM   #25
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


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Did you use insulation in the cores or line the inside with foam?


There are truly almost an endless number of ways to insulate. All the insulation is on the interior,the cores do not provide adequate space for insulation + there would be a lot of thermal bridging even if you could.

I have placed continuous rigid foam on walls,then attached hatch channels to hold it in place and allow a substrate to affix electric boxes drywall etc. Your imagination is the only limit on what can be done.

At one time Summit Brick had a "pamphlet " showing various methods of insulating.

It is my humble opinion that if one truly understood the nuances of structural brick wall assemblies ICF,s would be a non issue.
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Old 11-08-2013, 09:55 PM   #26
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


Hello WAZEZ;

Here is an article that depicts a structural brick home the guys from my local masonry group did in the 80' s. Hope this helps explain the process better. I was indirectly involved with this one,but deeply involved since.http://www.masonrytech.com/reinforcedbrickarticle.pdf


If you have any questions PM me.
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Old 11-08-2013, 10:08 PM   #27
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


RPM150; Did you shoot your neighbors' German Shepherd dog lol !



Just kidding !
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Old 11-09-2013, 07:44 AM   #28
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


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Hello WAZEZ;

Here is an article that depicts a structural brick home the guys from my local masonry group did in the 80' s. Hope this helps explain the process better. I was indirectly involved with this one,but deeply involved since.http://www.masonrytech.com/reinforcedbrickarticle.pdf


If you have any questions PM me.
I would bet the structural brick is what? 5 times more labor intensive? And the cost?
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Old 11-09-2013, 06:47 PM   #29
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


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I would bet the structural brick is what? 5 times more labor intensive? And the cost?




You would loose the bet !
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Old 11-09-2013, 08:27 PM   #30
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


icf for foundation. double stud wall, dense pack to r40+, air seal at the sheathing plane and run a HRV on the inside, say hello to sweet sweet comfort.
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Old 11-10-2013, 08:24 AM   #31
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


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You would loose the bet !
Really? How so?

I would build every project with ICF, but it is not cost effective in many cases, and I would guess labor on the walls to be much lower in time then what you do....brick on the outside of ICF is the same as on frame.
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Old 11-10-2013, 12:20 PM   #32
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


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Really? How so?

I would build every project with ICF, but it is not cost effective in many cases, and I would guess labor on the walls to be much lower in time then what you do....brick on the outside of ICF is the same as on frame.


Stop and think of this for a minute.No matter how you slice it there is a certain amount of redundancy in the use of ICF,s . The ICF provides the structure and insulation (though to enhance it is a further step).One then needs to add the exterior and interior finishes,be it wood,stucco,plastic,masonry etc.

With a structural brick you get the structure and exterior finish all in one. The choice of and / or prescriptive R rating is then applied.

One other aside,according to a survey by the National Assoc. of Home builders 85% of home buyers would prefer a brick home. Why not give it to them as a structure and finish rolled into one and eliminate the redundancy ?


Last but not least,you missed the picture. I was not advocating adding a structural brick to the exterior of an ICF, The structural brick is the wall,unlike adding brick veneer to an ICF or wood framed walls !
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Old 11-10-2013, 12:26 PM   #33
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


No, I did not miss the point. You could contend that by doing conventional brick exterior, that would count in your favor, but.....and this is where I was leading, at what cost?

We can do ICF's for $6 a sq/ft (area of the wall) and the exterior brick will cost about $4 a sq/ft, in this area.

So tell me about structural brick please. Include the total cost per sq/ft of wall, as I gave you above.
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Old 11-10-2013, 12:52 PM   #34
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


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No, I did not miss the point. You could contend that by doing conventional brick exterior, that would count in your favor, but.....and this is where I was leading, at what cost?

We can do ICF's for $6 a sq/ft (area of the wall) and the exterior brick will cost about $4 a sq/ft, in this area.

So tell me about structural brick please. Include the total cost per sq/ft of wall, as I gave you above.


Approx. $14.00 sq.ft. in my area (N.W. In.) . Before you get to excited,unlike an ICF.wall with brick veneer,the structural brick will need only a 8" foundation to accommodate it. Some of those cost savings need be applied.

So the 5 times cost you suggested is not even close to reality. Also,why the heck do we, one of the wealthiest countries in the world constantly attempt to measure the worth of our buildings by how cheap we can build them vs aesthetics and posterity ????


I'm truly not interested in seeing how low I can go on price point.
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Old 11-10-2013, 01:11 PM   #35
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


Since were debating icf versus block here's my house. 6" block with brick veneer.

ICF vs CMU-forumrunner_20131110_131528.jpg



ICF vs CMU-forumrunner_20131110_131538.jpg
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Old 11-10-2013, 01:22 PM   #36
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


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Since were debating icf versus block here's my house. 6" block with brick veneer.

Attachment 102844



Attachment 102845


Looks good ! I too am a fan of composite walls vs. A wood framed building disguised to look like a masonry building.As author Steve Mouzon wood say "brick wallpaper applied to give the illusion that the building is built of a more prestigious material than mere wood ".
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Old 11-10-2013, 02:17 PM   #37
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


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Looks good ! I too am a fan of composite walls vs. A wood framed building disguised to look like a masonry building.As author Steve Mouzon wood say "brick wallpaper applied to give the illusion that the building is built of a more prestigious material than mere wood ".
Thanks....made sense to me. Of course im a mason. A wood framed structure just seems inferior to me.
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Old 11-10-2013, 09:57 PM   #38
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


Oh boy oh boy,
This has been all i have talked about working the trade show for the past 2 days. I will elaborate on this at some point in the near future.
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Old 11-11-2013, 07:46 AM   #39
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


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So the 5 times cost you suggested is not even close to reality. Also,why the heck do we, one of the wealthiest countries in the world constantly attempt to measure the worth of our buildings by how cheap we can build them vs aesthetics and posterity ????


I'm truly not interested in seeing how low I can go on price point.
I was simply guessing at 5 times, but, you say why based on price?

Because, if I can build with ICF's, and get it down to a close margin over framing, then obviously, I will have more work....and yes, profitable work. You can price yourself out of the market.....high end? Sure...and after that?

I have never even heard of structural brick around here.
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Old 11-11-2013, 12:20 PM   #40
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Re: ICF Vs CMU


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I have never even heard of structural brick around here.



I'm somewhat surprised,the Western States Clay Products Assoc.(which operates in the States W. of Mississippi river) has a strong presence. Beyond that,your neighboring state Colorado is home to Summit brick,a producer of such brick.

You may find this video informative .....or the companion one on fire testing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60nffXn9VjI

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