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Rust Pops

 
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Old 02-24-2015, 12:46 PM   #1
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Rust Pops


I noticed this today sitting in traffic. The building (a church, probably early '70s) is covered with them. I am guessing ungalvanized ties. I will get back and take some better pictures sometime today or tomorrow.
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Old 02-24-2015, 07:02 PM   #2
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Re: Rust Pops


Or possibly wire less than 5/8" from face shell.

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Old 02-24-2015, 08:02 PM   #3
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Re: Rust Pops


It looks like solid masonry...if that's the case, why would there be ties?
Durawall maybe, but every course? Looks strange to me as I've fixed some durawall pops and they don't look like that.
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Old 02-24-2015, 09:05 PM   #4
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Re: Rust Pops


I got a call for a similar job, had to pass on it. The top crown molding was all breaking apart and falling. Way beyond fixing and way bigger than something i want to get wrapped up in! Very similar panels made of reinforced concrete to appear like stone or something
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Old 02-24-2015, 09:52 PM   #5
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Re: Rust Pops


SOP for this type of construction around here calls for z shaped ties slotted into the rock and that is consistent with where the pops are. Current SOP also calls for stainless, but I bet those are not.

Like these:

http://wirebond.com/stone%20anchors/#sa3059

Or the split tail type, but the pops do not show that type.
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Old 02-24-2015, 10:05 PM   #6
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Re: Rust Pops


So your saying it is framed construction and that's the stone facade?

That pic is hard to decipher, looks like reg. cbu's to me
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Old 02-24-2015, 11:05 PM   #7
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Re: Rust Pops


It is 4" thick, sawn all sides limestone. Very soft, very porous. The structure itself is probably steel, but I have no real knowledge on that.
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Old 02-25-2015, 06:21 AM   #8
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Re: Rust Pops


the Stone veneer anchor straps weren't galvanized or stainless steel. They than rusted/exploded the anchor slots/holes

Local cow college/University has several 1905 through 1930 limestone veneered blds that are failing in a similar manner.

window age and pre EPA smog damage on stone, and amount of erosion at least 55 years old Tscar is my guess.

How would one economically repair something like this, every stone would have to be relaid?
Un vented cavity exacerbated issue. failure to repoint joints in timely fashion, most likely grossly inadequate # of weeps/ropes, and of course gutter maintenance.

Last edited by Fouthgeneration; 02-25-2015 at 06:29 AM.
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Old 02-25-2015, 07:36 AM   #9
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Re: Rust Pops


There is no repair for that, it has to be removed.
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Old 02-25-2015, 04:56 PM   #10
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Re: Rust Pops


Silliness of using bare iron/steel on the wet side of the rainwall is just one many reasons why we have constant inspection.

I'd love to know who chose to use the sure to massively fail stone anchors, A cheap owner, a greedy GC or an low bid lye by day fly by night brickie....

Last edited by Fouthgeneration; 02-25-2015 at 04:57 PM. Reason: Contraction what is your function
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Old 02-26-2015, 05:24 PM   #11
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Re: Rust Pops


The usage of steel in masonry is of itself an interesting topic. There is no doubt,the incorporation of a little steel provides properties to masonry that yield some amazing results. With that said,it may be a double edged sword.


Prior to the advent of engineering,buildings were built using empirical design as the guidelines. Sure we have various coatings to enhance the performance of the steel,they range from galvanized,hot dipped galvanized,epoxy,and possibly the king of the hill stainless. While masonry and poured concrete have some common ground,they also are quite different. By that I mean,concrete has certain specs.that control the coverage of the steel with concrete to aid in the protection of the steel from corrosion. While masonry does also,by its very nature,the coverage is nowhere near that of concrete;thereby placing the steel at risk,yes even the king of the hill stainless.


One case that comes to my mind which causes me to take pause is the bonding of multiple wythes of masonry,particularly in composite walls. Back in the day,block producers manufactured header block to tie the brick to the back up. Somewhere along the way,wire uprooted headers as the connecting link. The reasoning was,the wire provides better flexibility between the two,and less chance for water penetration. At least,that is what we have been told to believe.


Just possibly,the reason we need "flexibility" in our walls is because we are trying to join two rather dissimilar material I.E. clay brick and concrete block. These two materials want to do different things,the clay wants to expand and grow,while the block wants to shrink.

Years ago,the masonry industry became aware of this phenomena and were going to examine what takes place in the collar joints in said walls.Never did hear the results.

Anyway the photos that started this thread expose the egg on the face of the masonry industry. With the introduction and improper usage of steel,the incurable obsolescence was built into the building.A product that should last for a millennial (masonry) was brought to it's knees in short order. A pure shame !

Just some thoughts / ramblings.
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Old 02-26-2015, 06:41 PM   #12
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Re: Rust Pops


On greater examination, maybe just water/freeze damage, no oxide streaks for rusty anchor, Unfilled void collected water-froze-pop. Sloppy masonry workmanship
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Old 02-27-2015, 06:59 AM   #13
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Re: Rust Pops


If that's limestone and those are rust pops, there would be huge rust stains. Alway always always use stainless with limestone. I use for all material anchoring.
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Old 02-27-2015, 11:49 AM   #14
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Re: Rust Pops


They are rust pops for sure. I stopped by a few minutes ago and walked it and took pics. I can't post them until tonight though.

Soft porous limestone+trapped moisture+iron=rust pops. Remember, this is Austin, damn near desert. There is no erosion, the edges are sharp and the pops recent. It is barricaded off, and there is stone on the ground. The shape is due to the fine grained soft limestone, it pops in an expanding radial of the point of pressure. I was wrong about the thickness of the stone, it is at least 6", maybe a full 8" thick.

The church was built in 1955, and they have a plan for remediation, but not enough money to begin.
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Old 02-27-2015, 11:55 AM   #15
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Re: Rust Pops


That is a shame,a 60 year old masonry building with that degree of degradation .
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Old 02-28-2015, 11:22 AM   #16
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Re: Rust Pops


Representative pops:
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Old 02-28-2015, 01:02 PM   #17
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Re: Rust Pops


This article dovetails into this thread regarding the corrosion of metal in conjunction with masonry.


The paragraph on page #19 corroborates with my previous post,for it mentions the service life of the most common coatings / metals including stainless steel. Bottom line, even the life cycle of stainless used in conjunction with masonry is finite.


The lesson learned is easy to understand. If you want to build buildings to last many hundreds of years,it is a no brainer,look how the hundreds of year old buildings were built.





http://www.rci-online.org/interface/2010-03-gerns.pdf
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Old 02-28-2015, 01:29 PM   #18
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Re: Rust Pops


The Romans, Incans and Greeks, among others, used metal in masonry that has lasted for many hundreds of years. It is not the metal itself that is the problem, it is the design and detailing of the structure itself.
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Old 02-28-2015, 05:27 PM   #19
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Re: Rust Pops


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tscarborough View Post
The Romans, Incans and Greeks, among others, used metal in masonry that has lasted for many hundreds of years. It is not the metal itself that is the problem, it is the design and detailing of the structure itself.




True,the Egyptians did also,however,for them it was copper and it had not a thin skin of masonry covering the metal,it was three feet of stone. Also,those environments (especially Egypt) are not nearly as harsh as North America.



If one wants to point the finger at design and detailing as the culprit,I guess we as a people have not done too good discovering / implementing the the secret formula.In many cases(including the photo that started this thread) the designers were "sure" they got it right,only for the disappointment to show up in the not so distant future.
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Old 02-28-2015, 06:25 PM   #20
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Re: Rust Pops


Its my understanding that the more knowledgeable Ancients avoided the the use of embedded oxidizing metals, especially bare iron and steel....

Using metal cramps etc... was for lower grade work.


Just changing the position of the anchors ( to the head joints or so the notch or cramp hole was closer to the hidden face of the unit) or drilling drains into the voids...

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