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New Toilet Siphoning Trap To Tub/shower

 
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Old 04-13-2013, 07:44 PM   #1
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New Toilet Siphoning Trap To Tub/shower


How many of you check to see what the existing stack in an older home looks like when bidding a bath remodel? Had a recent experience where a new toilet was installed, and because it now flushes with more force, it's siphoning the trap from the tub that sits beside it. It's an existing 3" cast stack/vent with a 1 1/2" copper drain from the tub coming in directly horizontel. Homeowner is complaining about the gurgling sound coming from the tub when the toilet is flushed. The trap to the tub was redone with a fernco connection to the old copper drain line at the same time. Never would have guessed this would occur, as the old toilet didn't make this happen. Of course the old toilet flushed slower. Now I'm looking at replacing the cast stack in that area with PVC and installing a Y down lower for the tub. Anyone else run into this before?
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Old 04-13-2013, 08:57 PM   #2
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Re: New Toilet Siphoning Trap To Tub/shower


Hell yes.

Get this:

2 story home with 1 bath & laundry upstairs. Bath is directly below 3" cast vent line.

Kitchen on main floor is directly below man vent line. 1/2 bath on main floor drops right down into basement and connects in slab with main drain leaving home.

No vents on anything, other than a wet vent. Upstairs bath is all real close. Kitchen on main floor is close. 1/2 bath on main floor is mostly vertical. Laundry upstairs is vertical to floor drain in basement.

Flush toilet upstairs and the 1/2 bath toilet on the main floor downstairs turns into a geyser! Water will come up about 8" and a big burp.

The upstairs toilet is separated from the downstairs toilet by 16' of vertical pipe and 12-18' of horizontal pipe, then up 8' again.

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Old 04-13-2013, 09:24 PM   #3
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Re: New Toilet Siphoning Trap To Tub/shower


Well, all righty then. Your problem makes mine look fairly tame. The thing to remember would be, drains and vents were designed for the fixtures draining into them at that time. As we change them for faster draining, more modern devices, what they're draining into needs to be looked at.
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Old 04-13-2013, 10:13 PM   #4
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Re: New Toilet Siphoning Trap To Tub/shower


I'm not sure how your solution will change anything. A different pipe material won't change the problem.

Lowering where the tub enters the toilet line will make the problem worse, no?

I'm afraid you need to vent the tub drain.

I think both of our problems may be that our 3" cast iron lines are now running 1 1/2" clear.

It still blows my mind that a 6 quart toilet flush from a second story can cause an 8" geyser in a toilet 8' below and about 32' of pipe away. (my case).

Saluto.
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Old 04-14-2013, 11:37 AM   #5
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Re: New Toilet Siphoning Trap To Tub/shower


Changing the drain material isn't the cure, but putting a y in lower will help. Right now the tub drain comes in horizontally into a cast hub with another drain.
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:04 PM   #6
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Re: New Toilet Siphoning Trap To Tub/shower


Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsacubbard? View Post
Changing the drain material isn't the cure, but putting a y in lower will help. Right now the tub drain comes in horizontally into a cast hub with another drain.
Pros.... I'm a GC.... and just interested... when you are wet venting a, for instance, bathroom with a toilet into a 3" ABS stack, does it matter significantly whether you bringyour sink and tub lines into the stack above or below the toilet Y.

Not sure, but it seems to me any siphoning effect on the sink/tub would be virtually the same. (Same amount of water is going to eventually exert a siphoning effect on the wet vented sink/tub regardless of whether their Y are above or below the WC.

I've seen it done both ways... just wondering... and it seems more of an issue of fit than one of siphoning. (In theory I guess the stack should be big enough so there is no issue, but given a choice, which way would you do it.)

Thanks

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Old 04-23-2013, 06:50 PM   #7
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Re: New Toilet Siphoning Trap To Tub/shower


What
Did you check to see if the vent though the roof is clear. It sounds like your problem is lack of air from above so it sucks the drain. Perhaps the vent is clogged?
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Old 04-23-2013, 07:59 PM   #8
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Re: New Toilet Siphoning Trap To Tub/shower


Vent is not clogged. That was the first thing I checked. Interestingly enough, after I told her it would be 500 to 600 to correct the slight gurgling noise she was hearing, she decided she could live with it. By the way, I had two licensed plumbers come look at this with a combined 57 years of experience and they both told her the same thing. The second one was called in because she wanted a second opinion. Then she had the nerve to ask if I would split the cost of a plumber of her choosing to come look at it. I said sure and the next thing I know, she calls and says never mind. Go figure.
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:24 PM   #9
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Re: New Toilet Siphoning Trap To Tub/shower


I figured my vent had a dead bird or squirrel or something in it, so I ran a tape down it with a roller ball on the end. I didn't notice anything, but it seems to have taken care of the geyser.

Now I have to figure how to get the tape back out. I got it stuck where the main vent/drain elbows into the slab in the basement. I opened up a cleanout down there about 3' above the floor and I see the tape there.

I took a pair of large visegrips and a prybar up on the roof, locked on the tape, and pried against the cast, and I can't budge it.

Next plan is to go in the basement to the cleanout, grab it with a pair of needlenose pliers, get it close to the edge and lock onto it with the visegrips and try to push/pull.

Sometimes I can't believe the trouble I get myself into/out of.

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