Help With Custom Shower Pan - Plumbing - Contractor Talk

Help With Custom Shower Pan

 
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Old 09-07-2010, 10:12 PM   #1
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Help With Custom Shower Pan


Hello All -

I am currently in the process of renovating a home. As part of the renovation, I sub'd out the master bathroom to a local contractor in order to install a custom neo-angle shower with travertine and free-standing glass.

I am currently at a stand still with the sub, due to a disagreement over the sand pad/base that has been built so far.

The contractor utilized a 2x'4 perimeter to establish the curb, and then laid rubber membrane directly against the subfloor. He then poured his sand pad directly on top of the membrane. After questioning his work, he has walked off the job and now is demanding payment. Here are the issues i was hoping to get clarification on:

1) There was no pre-pan or grade for the membrane to lay against, so that any water that were to accumulate would not be able to find the drain, rather it can collect moisture and degrade/mildew the sand pad. Is this true? Is there any code that you all can reference for me (perhaps Ohio building code requirements)? I am positive this is not code, but do not have anything to provide the contractor to prove this to him.


2) If a pre-pan is required to establish grade for the membrane, what is the required slope?

3) is the use a 2x4 perimeter acceptable?

4) the way the membrane lays against the 2x4 framework, it has created pockets between the membrane and sand pad, where the membrane was bunched up and not trimmed prior to pouring the pad. There are now hollow spots in the sand pad. Not only would these need to be filled before proceeding, the membrane would have to be cut and patched in order to get it to lay correctly. I see this as a huge compromise to the overall health of the shower pad, and see only problems moving forward.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance!
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Old 09-07-2010, 10:17 PM   #2
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Re: Help With Custom Shower Pan


Are you a contractor or home owner?

ALL pans need to be pre-sloped before a membrane.

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Old 09-07-2010, 10:17 PM   #3
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Re: Help With Custom Shower Pan


You list your trade as a painter yet you are acting as a GC on this job?
Does Ohio use straight IRC for 1 and 2 family Dwellings or did they adopt their own code?
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Old 09-07-2010, 10:28 PM   #4
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Re: Help With Custom Shower Pan


yes, i am acting as the GC on this job.


angus, can you provide any building code or plumbers code that can confirm this?
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Old 09-07-2010, 10:36 PM   #5
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Re: Help With Custom Shower Pan


I can.





































oh, you wanted to know the 411

TCNA Method B414-09
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Old 09-08-2010, 09:54 PM   #6
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Re: Help With Custom Shower Pan


i made several calls to our local agencies asking who would be available to come out to inspect the work done so far on this shower.

eventually, i talked with the inspector responsible for plumbing within the city limits. unfortunately, he told me that since this residence is outside city limits, they are not interested in determining whether the pan meets code requirements.

Any additional information out there that i can reference?
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Old 09-08-2010, 10:07 PM   #7
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Re: Help With Custom Shower Pan


I'm confused. If your municipality doesn't care, what's with the need to find documentation?

Why is TCNA Method B414-09 not good enough? They are the organization that spends thousands of hours each year making sure tile installation methods are the best they can be. If they say that's how to do it, who is to argue differently?
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Old 09-08-2010, 10:26 PM   #8
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Re: Help With Custom Shower Pan


I believe this is a HO GC'ing his own job trying to build a case not to pay his sub.
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Old 09-08-2010, 10:26 PM   #9
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Re: Help With Custom Shower Pan


the issue is that my name is behind the work, and i am disputing with the sub that it needs to be torn out and installed with a sand pad that includes a pre-pitched slope for the membrane to sit on.
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Old 09-08-2010, 10:32 PM   #10
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Re: Help With Custom Shower Pan


If you're the GC, tell the sub what you want or find a new sub.
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Old 09-09-2010, 06:14 AM   #11
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Re: Help With Custom Shower Pan


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tattoo View Post
I believe this is a HO GC'ing his own job trying to build a case not to pay his sub.
No, the fact is that don't try to slip shotty work past me, when my name is on the work. If you don't build it to code, you should either correct the issue, or find a new line of work. If you don't build it to code, you shouldn't expect to get paid.
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Old 09-09-2010, 10:53 AM   #12
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Re: Help With Custom Shower Pan


Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrenn71 View Post
i made several calls to our local agencies asking who would be available to come out to inspect the work done so far on this shower.

eventually, i talked with the inspector responsible for plumbing within the city limits. unfortunately, he told me that since this residence is outside city limits, they are not interested in determining whether the pan meets code requirements.

Any additional information out there that i can reference?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrenn71 View Post
the issue is that my name is behind the work, and i am disputing with the sub that it needs to be torn out and installed with a sand pad that includes a pre-pitched slope for the membrane to sit on.
Best to handle it yourself.
Calling on a Building Official to help you go after the
hack that you hired will make you look like a smuck.
Do your research, tear it out and do it right.
We are not here to answer dumb a$$ questions for every
GC wanna be that comes along.
Get a clue.
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Old 09-09-2010, 09:08 PM   #13
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Re: Help With Custom Shower Pan


I really don't think it's a dumb question.

I'd look more like a "smuck" (i think you mean schmuck) if i knew about the issue and let it go, than try and do the right thing to correct the issue.

Thanks for those who have been helpful on this thread. If you aren't going to be constructive in helping someone with their issue, please go on to the next thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skyhook View Post
Best to handle it yourself.
Calling on a Building Official to help you go after the
hack that you hired will make you look like a smuck.
Do your research, tear it out and do it right.
We are not here to answer dumb a$$ questions for every
GC wanna be that comes along.
Get a clue.
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Old 09-09-2010, 09:16 PM   #14
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Re: Help With Custom Shower Pan


Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrenn71 View Post
I really don't think it's a dumb question.

I'd look more like a "smuck" (i think you mean schmuck) if i knew about the issue and let it go, than try and do the right thing to correct the issue.

Thanks for those who have been helpful on this thread. If you aren't going to be constructive in helping someone with their issue, please go on to the next thread.
Before you can render a solution, you have to understand the problem.

Consider it a BTDT. Not something anybody should try.
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Old 09-09-2010, 11:13 PM   #15
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Re: Help With Custom Shower Pan


What's with the hostility?

If the building department wont inspect/fail the installation, it seems you're out of luck for an authority to side with you... The TCNA guidelines will certainly help if the sub decided to take you to court for non-payment, but other than that, the TCNA is just there to recommend best practices.
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Old 09-10-2010, 07:38 AM   #16
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Re: Help With Custom Shower Pan


splinter - the city has stated that since the home is located outside the cit limits, they do not have jurisdiction, which is the reason they said an inspection was not necessary.

Any other resources outside of the TCNA and Unified Plumbing Code?
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Old 09-10-2010, 08:14 AM   #17
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Re: Help With Custom Shower Pan


Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrenn71 View Post
Any other resources outside of the TCNA and Unified Plumbing Code?
Common sense?


You're not going to get any more info on this. People build shower pans like you've described all the time. I see it from "licensed" contractors on HGTV. Does that make it right? No. Does this keep me in business for many, many years to come from all the failures about to happen? Yes!

As a GC, you should have supplied the specs on how to build the shower pan OR you should have received plans from the sub and signed off on them before they started the work.

Legally, I don't see anything you can stand on here. Fire them. Pay them for the work they've done. Tear it out yourself. Hire a new sub that will build it to yours specs. Expensive lesson learned; have everything in writing before the work commences.

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