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Have A Look Tell Me If This Looks Right

 
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Old 02-15-2008, 11:49 PM   #1
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Have A Look Tell Me If This Looks Right


OK, so I am on a job that just does not seem to be ending. Here's the deal....After replacing 4 cartridges because the "plumbers" failed to remove them from their bodies where a lable clearly states not to solder...anyhow. They have a Takagi 8.something tankless heater. It's a POS (IMO) and I am just about done with this whole job. 3 days of fixits and repairs/maintenance.
Here is my issue. They have a First Co Aqua Therm heater. It's just like an FAU but no gas. It gets its heat from the tankless heater. 3/4" in and 3/4" out. That out line is what has me concerned because of the behavior of the bathroom lav that is the furthest distance from the tankless heater. Please know there is a recirc pump (that I just replaced) I found long strands of solder that was loaded with calcuim build up that clogged the impeller and smoked out the grufie. Pump has been replaced but I want to know for certain that the plumbing is correct before bringing it online. The fixture at the furthest point takes about 10 minutes to get hot. When that heater is running, it will not get hot.....maybe warm.

Have a look at the pictures and tell me what you think. Personally I think the location of where the 3/4 return from the air heater was installed in the wrong place. Joining up anything to the recirc line like this is just wrong.

What say you? I am heading back one last time tomorrow and really want to know if what I have planned will work.

Thanks

Have a look tell me if this looks right-ct44.jpg

Have a look tell me if this looks right-ct45.jpg

Have a look tell me if this looks right-ct46.jpg




My proposed plan of attack is to cut the return heater line just above the tee next to the 1/2" recirc line. Extend that to the OTHER side of the check valve (blue line) and tee it into that. I would bring that line over above the cold inlet so I can tee it in as per manufactures spec. Whatcha think?
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Old 02-16-2008, 07:11 AM   #2
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Re: Have A Look Tell Me If This Looks Right


What is the galvanized piping for?

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Old 02-16-2008, 08:12 AM   #3
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Re: Have A Look Tell Me If This Looks Right


As quirky as tankless heaters are, is a recirc pump even a good idea?
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Old 02-16-2008, 08:17 AM   #4
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Re: Have A Look Tell Me If This Looks Right


Why is the T&P turned up, is that not against code? Creates a trap, could cause T&P to not function the way is was planned.

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Old 02-16-2008, 09:52 AM   #5
 
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Re: Have A Look Tell Me If This Looks Right


Doesn't a recirc pump need a holding tank on a tankless system?
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Old 02-16-2008, 10:16 AM   #6
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Re: Have A Look Tell Me If This Looks Right


I can see the cold side return to the Aqua temp furnace, but I can't see the hot side tap.

The taps are shown to connect to the branch of the hot and cold outlets for a reason. It has to do with resistance to flow. Water will not make that turn, unless there is a pressure imbalance, which should only exist if the furnace circulating pump is running. This is also to prevent air locking the pump.


I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking at here. You have a recirculating pump, a tankless water heater and a water source furnace on this system?
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Old 02-16-2008, 10:58 AM   #7
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Re: Have A Look Tell Me If This Looks Right


Quote:
Originally Posted by Putty Truck View Post
Doesn't a recirc pump need a holding tank on a tankless system?
Nopers Puty, it doesn't. It just needs enough flow to allow the machine to work properly, but not so high as to cause erosion. Its a dumb idea if you ask me, unless the pump is on a timer and only recircs during short time frames. Otherwise, you're heating water for nothing just like a storage tank unit and poof, there go the savings.
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Old 02-16-2008, 11:02 AM   #8
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Re: Have A Look Tell Me If This Looks Right


LOL...I know it's very busy. Took me a little bit of time to figure it all out.

Gal pipe is the gas line for the tankless. 1" down to 3/4" at the finished wall.
Tankless heaters don't use TnP's, just Pressure relief valves, and I very well may have blown a code on installing it like that. I simply rebuilt what was there. There was another setup before I put in my isolation valves, old one was like as you see and it passed (but that ain't saying much) You would never guess who the neighbor is related to....few hints: Bad with women - like the beach - met Dog the Bounty Hunter once!!
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Old 02-16-2008, 11:10 AM   #9
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Re: Have A Look Tell Me If This Looks Right


Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-A View Post
I can see the cold side return to the Aqua temp furnace, but I can't see the hot side tap.

The taps are shown to connect to the branch of the hot and cold outlets for a reason. It has to do with resistance to flow. Water will not make that turn, unless there is a pressure imbalance, which should only exist if the furnace circulating pump is running. This is also to prevent air locking the pump.


I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking at here. You have a recirculating pump, a tankless water heater and a water source furnace on this system?

Yup. Based on that manual diagram with respect to the internal pump and check valve, than follow that return line untill it comes out of the wall and joins up with the recirc's line, doesn't that look wrong? Has anyone seen some other kind of setup like this? Especially one that has a water furnace?
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Old 02-16-2008, 11:21 AM   #10
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Re: Have A Look Tell Me If This Looks Right


Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNLA View Post
Yup. Based on that manual diagram with respect to the internal pump and check valve, than follow that return line untill it comes out of the wall and joins up with the recirc's line, doesn't that look wrong? Has anyone seen some other kind of setup like this? Especially one that has a water furnace?
Yes it is wrong. It should also be running horizontally, not vertically. The cold water inlet should be vertical where it joins, just as shown on the diagram. Again, this is to prevent air lock of the pump.

Another thing I don't see is a tempering valve anyplace. If this heater is set to more than 120 degrees for domestic heating (and I believe your water sourced furnace is going to call for 140+ water) you should have a tempering valve.

This is a replacement system? They have run the recirc with the water sourced furnace before on a tankless system with success?
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Old 02-16-2008, 11:34 AM   #11
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Re: Have A Look Tell Me If This Looks Right


I have never even seen a water furnace before. Heard of em, but never seen one.
Heater is now set to 122f...it was at 140 but I turned it down. I honestly couldn't care less about the water heater, that's HVAC's job, I am just getting the plumbing corrected and safe. I'd rather have a heater that doesn't work that great even at 140 run less warm than start tempering down the house water and getting married to this house.

Ok, as for that cold return I will relocate it and see if that helps. In theory it should correct the issue, off to the lab!!

Thanks
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Old 02-16-2008, 01:16 PM   #12
 
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Re: Have A Look Tell Me If This Looks Right


Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-A View Post
Nopers Puty, it doesn't. It just needs enough flow to allow the machine to work properly, but not so high as to cause erosion. Its a dumb idea if you ask me, unless the pump is on a timer and only recircs during short time frames. Otherwise, you're heating water for nothing just like a storage tank unit and poof, there go the savings.
Yeah, they do. I don't have time to hunt up the specs, but it is a requirement. The holding tank isn't large, just a few gallons. I'll get the specs as soon as I have time.

These tankless units...I don't know. I've seen lots of fads comes and go and these may be that. Like the Internet, ya know? Back in the early 90s the internet was a big hoohah and look at it now....pfffft.
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Old 02-16-2008, 11:20 PM   #13
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Re: Have A Look Tell Me If This Looks Right


Fixed. Relocated that return line and that solved the problem. Bad plumbers / bad inspectors.

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