Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question - Plumbing - Contractor Talk

Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question

 
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:30 PM   #1
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Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


At my house, after running water I read about 70 PSI but it slowly creeps up to 135 PSI. I think the PRV after the meter is allowing a trickle of full pressure by. Running one hose at 6GPM drops pressure at another branch to 40 PSI. Might just be insufficient piping in the house. 3/4 copper quickly branches to 1/2".

My questions:
Do I need a new PRV or can I fix the issue?

Is black poly a good material for the water line? House is 45 years old. Would this be original?

I'd like to see 60psi while running a hose, is this unrealistic?
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:55 PM   #2
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Re: Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


Install an inline pressure regulator.

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Old 04-16-2019, 09:05 PM   #3
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Re: Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


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Install an inline pressure regulator.

Tom
Is that different than a PRV? Which I have. Which doesn't seem to work right.

https://www.watts.com/products/plumb...educing-valves
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:03 PM   #4
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Re: Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


PVR's go bad, I'd just replace it.
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:06 PM   #5
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Re: Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


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Is that different than a PRV? Which I have. Which doesn't seem to work right.

https://www.watts.com/products/plumb...educing-valves
Same part. Just replace it.

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Old 04-16-2019, 10:36 PM   #6
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Re: Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


Any home with a tank style Water heater needs an expansion tank when ever there is a one way valve preventing heated water to "back" up into the utility/supply side of the water meter/back flow.


There are a couple of threads on this issue.
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:28 AM   #7
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Re: Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


Anyone have answers for questions 2 and 3? Especially if black poly is a good water line material. I have not seen it around here before. Always pex, copper and galvanized.
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:33 AM   #8
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Re: Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


I have black poly line from my well to my pressure tank
then PVC and pex after that

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Old 04-17-2019, 06:53 AM   #9
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Re: Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


Black poly is used extensively in many areas. Like any other product - it has pros and cons. One thing to remember about black poly is that it's not all created equal. some poly is rated for 60 psi while the best residental poly is rated for 200+ psi

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Old 04-17-2019, 07:37 AM   #10
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Re: Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


Nothing wrong with black poly; I too have it on my well line.

I'd get a new pressure reducing valve on there ASAP. A few years back, a local water company elected to just jack up their pressure in the whole system rather than put in booster pumps to provide satisfactory pressure in outlying areas. Hundreds of homes suddenly had leaking valves and joints. After a few rounds in court, they wound up installing PRVs free for anyone who requested one.

I'm no plumber, but I suspect that even with all 3/4" line and a 70 PSI source, you'd be hard pressed to maintain 60 PSI while draining the system at 6 GPM. You just don't have enough flow volume available.
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:03 AM   #11
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Re: Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


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Nothing wrong with black poly; I too have it on my well line.

I'd get a new pressure reducing valve on there ASAP. A few years back, a local water company elected to just jack up their pressure in the whole system rather than put in booster pumps to provide satisfactory pressure in outlying areas. Hundreds of homes suddenly had leaking valves and joints. After a few rounds in court, they wound up installing PRVs free for anyone who requested one.

I'm no plumber, but I suspect that even with all 3/4" line and a 70 PSI source, you'd be hard pressed to maintain 60 PSI while draining the system at 6 GPM. You just don't have enough flow volume available.
Thanks. Appreciate the insight.

Ultimately, I think I'll install a new water line anyway, since the existing one runs under the garage slab and converts to copper under the furnace, with no shut off valve.

I'm redoing both bathrooms so I'll repipe the whole thing in PEX, with hose bibs branching off the 1".
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:13 AM   #12
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Re: Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


Well, I didn't trust me, so I went a-googling. It appears that 3/4" pipe does indeed provide enough flow volume that you should be able to maintain pressure, at least on a straight run. T's and elbows would of course throttle that down a bit.
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:34 AM   #13
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Re: Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


I think code requires copper 8 ft from house to service line.
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:35 AM   #14
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Re: Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


Black poly pipe is installed here frequently, no issues with it.
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Old 04-17-2019, 10:43 AM   #15
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Re: Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


Black poly is common here, and I like it.

If the 3/4 inch doesn't hold 60psi with 6gpm, there isn't much you'll be able to do. Best shot is to run all separate PEX lines off a manifold, which is common practice for new builds.
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Old 04-17-2019, 05:17 PM   #16
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Re: Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


Repair or replace regulator valve if needed.

Add a tee(a bushed 1" x 1" x 1" Tee will flow better then a 3/4" tee) before pressure reducer, install second (again a bushed 1" PRV will loose less GPM then a 3/4" one...) PRV set at 80 PSI.

run high pressure 3/4" or 1" line to sillcocks....

Safe PSI to house fixtures, fewer water damage claims...

High volume, high pressure for Yard/ livestock etc....

Install gauge tees and the gauges (10$) on both sides of the household PVR.

The mechanism of pressure creep from the emptying the Water heater for a shower /laundry, it refills with cold dense water, warms up 70-90 degrees Fahrenheit, EXPANDS increasing water pressure against the one way service valve(s)......Eventually blowing the water heater tank, laundry machine hoses, toilet fittings = massive water damage $$$

The big issue I had with black poly is kinking it ruined it, very hard to plumb near freezing temps, But dirt cheap.

You MIGHT have a kinked service line that "closes" in lower pressure conditions = high flow.

Some times you can hear the turbulent flow state, try a mechanics stethoscope touching the first metal fitting.
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Old 04-17-2019, 05:22 PM   #17
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Re: Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


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I think code requires copper 8 ft from house to service line.
Definitely not here.
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:22 PM   #18
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Re: Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


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The mechanism of pressure creep from the emptying the Water heater for a shower /laundry, it refills with cold dense water, warms up 70-90 degrees Fahrenheit, EXPANDS increasing water pressure against the one way service valve(s)......Eventually blowing the water heater tank, laundry machine hoses, toilet fittings = massive water damage $$$
I appreciate your insight on the pressure creep, but it does seem to be from the PRV letting full pressure by slowly. Turned off the water heater 8 hours ago. Run a tap, the pressure creeps up after an hour. Always from 70 to 135.

I do think I'll move the PRV to the house after the 160' run, plus up it to 1" which gives about 70% more flow for a given pressure drop (12GPM vs 7GPM at 10PSI drop). Not sure I want to run hoses at 135 PSI though so I'll probably run everything after the PRV and set it to 75 PSI.

Directional boring coming Friday to install 160' from meter to house, 170' from house to shop, 150' from shop to orchard. Plus gas from house to shop.
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Old 04-18-2019, 01:21 AM   #19
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Re: Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


Max flow to Orchard, run street pressure line( might have to pay extra for high pressure rated "black" Poly) for 500 foot run total, tee off to home(actually enter home if meter is installed in home basement), and shop, with PRVs at EACH stop, gives you Max flow at all points.

EDITS:Globe valves installed after house, and shop on main line, for triage if the line fails from house to shop, and shop to orchard.


Make sure all parts are rated for max pressures, and I'd install a rather large anti-hammer device & trash drop at the end of line, and smaller ones on the low pressure side of the PRVs in the shop &Home.

I'd think the actual pipe is the cheapest part of the boring install?

Gas line running at ~5psi service pressure, all on single house located meter?

Don't forget the line to bar-bee-que grill,

For tax reasons you can install your OWN meter on the shop line for deducting the fraction of gas used for business with out paying a meter charge forever...

re: PRVs, some have a built in anti-pressure creep return flow provision, but adds cost and another mechanism to fail, to over-pressure conditions.
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Old 04-18-2019, 11:23 AM   #20
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Re: Black Poly Water Line To House And PRV Question


Hate black poly. We have it from our well. It is constantly getting sudden leaks. It was under the house as well.

It will turn into PEX eventually.

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