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Fixing The "low Bid"

 
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Old 07-04-2010, 01:09 PM   #41
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


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Originally Posted by Leo G View Post
Florida and wherever the hell Dayexco is from (please fill in your area) might have totally different rules for how the site needs to be setup for safety.
He is from South Dakota, so.....
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Old 07-04-2010, 01:24 PM   #42
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


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Originally Posted by bwalley View Post

Benching is not proper according to the pictures posted.
It depends on the type of soil. If he was in pure sand then it would have to be sloped back. As a matter of fact, it would be sloped back because you cannot hold sand on a straight wall.

Either way, you are allowed a 5ft deep trench without a box. If the trench is 5'1" and above, you need to bench it at least 4' and slope the top back at least 1 to 1 or greater depending on soil.
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Old 07-04-2010, 01:28 PM   #43
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


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Originally Posted by bwalley View Post
Your previous picture showed blatant violations, OSHA defines those as willful violations.
99.9% of inspectors wouldn't go willful unless there was a death or the company has a history of fines. There was a masonary contractor in my area that just had a trench collapse and killed one of his guys. OSHA did not go willful because he was a masonary contractor and was not trained in excavation. Basically, he didn't know any better.
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Old 07-04-2010, 01:36 PM   #44
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


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Originally Posted by bwalley View Post
he also has a kid close to the edge of the trench in a picture and he doesn't have barricades or fencing in it, only in part of it.

Just for the record, this is not a OSHA violation. They have no jurisdiction over this on protecting others. They are there to protect employees. It would be a municipality issue.
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Old 07-04-2010, 01:40 PM   #45
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


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Originally Posted by bwalley View Post
2 day 19 hour exam
2 day, 19 hrs...holy moly, how grueling that must have been


In Florida each trade has to be licensed and part of that is proving we know what we are doing. my dad was in the business long before they required licensing...he was "grandfathered" in...myself, i had to prove that i had worked for a licensed contractor 2 years by sworn affadavits, not only from my father, from from several other contractors in the trade attesting to the fact i had indeed been working in the trade. k(on edit...this is before i had to take my grueling open book test)

Just because you have always done it that way does not mean it is legal or safe,it is just you have been lucky no one was hurt in one of your trenches, I am sure you don't want anyone to get hurt, but they can. as i said in my prior post, i patiently, humbly await the show of your expertise.

.
thank you

Last edited by dayexco; 07-04-2010 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 07-04-2010, 01:54 PM   #46
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


I've been on internet forums for a very long time.. in fact I went to a 19 hour seminar and was tested for 2 days on the subject... And I stayed at the Holiday Inn Express last night.

Just kidding guys...

FWIW, arguing on the internet is like throwing bricks in the Grand Canyon. It feels good while you are doing it... but, it really doesn't make any difference at all. Another thing is... if somebody here comes across as an ass to others... nobody here on this forum will ever forget it.

ching... ching...
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Old 07-04-2010, 02:34 PM   #47
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


Quote:
Originally Posted by bwalley View Post
Your previous picture showed blatant violations, OSHA defines those as willful violations.


Problem with doing something where you think you know everything is you get complacent, BP is a good example.

Maybe your problem is you forgot the important things such as how to have a safe work environment for your employees as well as the people standing around watching what you are doing.

Bwalley your problem is you think you know everything. Can you explain the difference between class A, B, or C soils without looking at the charts? How can you discern what class soil Day is working with from a picture. Most of Day's work looks pretty safe but maybe not legal. It's really hard to tell from a picture. In Wa we deal with L&I not OSHA. If you were really concerned for Day and his employee's you might make a few suggestions about safety and expect him to ignore you since you are from a different trade. When you are the OSHA inspector in South Dakota you can go to Day's job-site and write him up if you want. Until then I suggest you don't pretend to be the Expert on Safety Issues in the whole U.S. For example Rino stated that trenches could be 5' deep. In Wa they can only be 4' deep. Does this make Rino an idiot? No of course not. It is my responsibility to know what is right in my particular area. If you want people to respect you don't pretend you know more then them and berate them when they disagree with you and prove you wrong.

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Old 07-04-2010, 05:29 PM   #48
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


after this thread, http://www.contractortalk.com/f59/os...ral-sub-77410/ this could be real interesting. of course, i could be way wrong in this not having the 19 hr. course on becoming a certified building contractor.
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Old 07-05-2010, 08:15 AM   #49
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


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Originally Posted by dayexco View Post
after this thread, http://www.contractortalk.com/f59/os...ral-sub-77410/ this could be real interesting. of course, i could be way wrong in this not having the 19 hr. course on becoming a certified building contractor.
It isn't a 19 hour course, it is a test to prove I am competent, in Florida they require licenses to be a contractor, underground is a specialty license, they don't allow anyone with a backhoe to be a contractor, you have to prove you know what you are doing.

Based on the pictures you posted, your jobsite is unsafe.
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Old 07-05-2010, 08:17 AM   #50
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


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Originally Posted by rino1494 View Post
It depends on the type of soil. If he was in pure sand then it would have to be sloped back. As a matter of fact, it would be sloped back because you cannot hold sand on a straight wall.

Either way, you are allowed a 5ft deep trench without a box. If the trench is 5'1" and above, you need to bench it at least 4' and slope the top back at least 1 to 1 or greater depending on soil.
That trench is deeper than 5 feet, it is not benched at 1 to 1

Look at the shovel in post 18 and the ladder, it gives you an idea of how deep it is.
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Old 07-05-2010, 08:35 AM   #51
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


Thank you Big Walley, for rising to the bait again and entertaining so many of us with your endless participation in pissing matches.
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Old 07-05-2010, 08:41 AM   #52
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


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Originally Posted by bwalley View Post
That trench is deeper than 5 feet, it is not benched at 1 to 1

Look at the shovel in post 18 and the ladder, it gives you an idea of how deep it is.
Post 18, picture on the left. Shovel is a D handle shovel, makes it approximately 3 feet tall. 1 foot above that, sloping begins. Figuring the bottom of the trench is 46 inches wide at the bottom, taking a straight edge and laying it on the slope that is cut, it goes to the bottom corner of the trench. Slope is legal, excavation depth that is vertical is 4 feet is legal. You should stick to what you know, have a nice day.
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Old 07-05-2010, 08:56 AM   #53
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


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Originally Posted by JDavis21835 View Post
Post 18, picture on the left. Shovel is a D handle shovel, makes it approximately 3 feet tall. 1 foot above that, sloping begins. Figuring the bottom of the trench is 46 inches wide at the bottom, taking a straight edge and laying it on the slope that is cut, it goes to the bottom corner of the trench. Slope is legal, excavation depth that is vertical is 4 feet is legal. You should stick to what you know, have a nice day.
Look at the shovel below the guys sitting by the trench, it is a straight handled shovel, longer than 4 feet.

Trench is not legal, it is not benched properly.
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Old 07-05-2010, 03:43 PM   #54
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


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Originally Posted by bwalley View Post
Look at the shovel below the guys sitting by the trench, it is a straight handled shovel, longer than 4 feet.

Trench is not legal, it is not benched properly.
Shows what you know about a pipelayers shovel. Once you figure out what a true pipelayer does with a normal shovel handle, we will continue this conversation.
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Old 07-05-2010, 04:18 PM   #55
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


Please keep it civil guys!

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Old 07-05-2010, 04:30 PM   #56
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


Bwalley, the soil in florida IS COMPLETELY different than south dakota, or NJ where I live. I don't see anything in these pics where anyone was in danger.

Those trenches are wide. Day, don't let this guy get you mad. It's not worth it. You've done nothing wrong.

So many of these OSHA regs are BS. now you are going to argue that his shovel is not the correct shovel?? give me a break. you have too much time on your hands.
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Old 07-05-2010, 04:42 PM   #57
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


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same over here too, evrything thats under ashphalt HAS to be backfilled with stone/granular material , we call it MOT type 1, which i guess is the same as your DOT?
Oh yea, stone/ granular fill for all utility trench backfill in the great state of tennessee.
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Old 07-05-2010, 05:04 PM   #58
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


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So many of these OSHA regs are BS. now you are going to argue that his shovel is not the correct shovel?? give me a break. you have too much time on your hands.
If you know that most pipelayers cut their shovel handles down, then you understand my statement. Its not ment to be a correct shovel argument.
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Old 07-05-2010, 05:26 PM   #59
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


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Originally Posted by ApgarNJ View Post
Bwalley, the soil in florida IS COMPLETELY different than south dakota, or NJ where I live. I don't see anything in these pics where anyone was in danger.

Those trenches are wide. Day, don't let this guy get you mad. It's not worth it. You've done nothing wrong.

So many of these OSHA regs are BS. now you are going to argue that his shovel is not the correct shovel?? give me a break. you have too much time on your hands.
OSHA 29 CFR 1926 to all states, not just Florida.

Try reading subpart p (excavations) it will explain how OSHA expects trenches to be handled.
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Old 07-05-2010, 05:29 PM   #60
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Re: Fixing The "low Bid"


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Originally Posted by JDavis21835 View Post
If you know that most pipelayers cut their shovel handles down, then you understand my statement. Its not ment to be a correct shovel argument.
i wasn't referring to your shovel comment. it was Bwalley's

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