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Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips

 
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:02 PM   #1
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Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


I have a job setting 60 plus hm frames in precast wall openings. The details I have been given show epoxy anchors but the job super says sleeve anchors (the spec book doesnt say either!)

What is the bestest fastest? Also the jambs have to be grouted solid and any tips would be appreciated. I have thought either rent a grout gun and have even thought of grouting before I set them. I have set plenty of hm frames but have never set any that were in precast walls or had to grout them

Any advice to speed things up would be really nice!

Oh by the way FWIW the openings all appear to be 1/2" big in the width and anywhere from 1/4 big to 1/4 too tight in the height
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:47 PM   #2
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Re: Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


sleeves. And I don't know about the rest that is a masons job. later

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Old 01-14-2010, 10:06 PM   #3
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Re: Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


Just get it writing from the super that his employer (the GC, I assume) will approve deviating from the details from the manufacturer or give you clearer requirements. If you are working as a sub, that should help to cover you, but nothing is ever perfect.
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Old 01-14-2010, 10:36 PM   #4
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Re: Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


Flat head sleeve anchors are a industry standard. Hollow metal frames for this application should have counter sunk holes from the manufacture. If not then there is a tool. But it might be homemade though. Ask the Sup for a RFI. Shouldn't be a problem. I also find it weird they want it grouted in. Usually the frames are gypcreted set then fire caulked.

Also don't take it in the azz if you have to remove concrete to fit the frames. That is a back charge if the GC doesn't take care of it.
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Old 01-15-2010, 05:56 PM   #5
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Re: Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


gotta use grout per the super and not gypcrete.. he says I have to end up at least 5000psi. Wonder if this would be doable before I set them? If nothing else it would turn a 25 lb door frame into a 150 lb one!

frames are indeed countersunk. I will have to drill holes in the frame to get the grout in and bondo over them unless I can come up with an easier way. They also want the bolt heads to be bonded over.


I will not be removing any concrete.. I will have to get a list of ones that dont fit and he will have somebody else cut it out. If they are close he wants me to trim the header of the frame (change order) All the sides should be fine (1/2 " clearance on all the ones I checked)

Last edited by cbfx3; 01-15-2010 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 01-19-2010, 04:05 PM   #6
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Re: Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


I have installed many hollow metal frames and they were always grouted in... hmm
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Old 01-19-2010, 06:35 PM   #7
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Re: Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


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I have installed many hollow metal frames and they were always grouted in... hmm

Looks like a regional thing. If the frame is to be grouted in the masons do it when they are stacking block. Setting frames is a carpenters job grouting is a masons job. Neither of which isn't a roofers. hmmmm
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Old 01-19-2010, 06:48 PM   #8
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Re: Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


let me clarify... Most of the hm frames Ive set have been in wood framed buildings. These are in precast concrete walls that have existing openings. I have about two days to decide whether to grout them on the floor and set them (makes them 200+ pounds!) or drill holes in the top of the frame and either pump in the grout or use grout bags...
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Old 01-19-2010, 06:57 PM   #9
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Re: Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


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Originally Posted by cbfx3 View Post
let me clarify... Most of the hm frames Ive set have been in wood framed buildings. These are in precast concrete walls that have existing openings. I have about two days to decide whether to grout them on the floor and set them (makes them 200+ pounds!) or drill holes in the top of the frame and either pump in the grout or use grout bags...
Do it on the ground. We gyp them on the ground then set them in this area. Yeah they are heavier you will need another guy to help with placing them.
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Old 01-19-2010, 07:16 PM   #10
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Re: Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


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Do it on the ground. We gyp them on the ground then set them in this area. Yeah they are heavier you will need another guy to help with placing them.
I'd make sure that it's acceptable to install them that way beforehand.
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Old 01-19-2010, 07:25 PM   #11
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Re: Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


actually the super said he has done it that way and it would be acceptable
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Old 01-19-2010, 07:48 PM   #12
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Re: Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


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actually the super said he has done it that way and it would be acceptable


The frame gets attached by the anchors. The grout is for fire right? That is the way I am looking at it. I could be wrong don't have the specs in front of me. Typically around here the frame is set gyp'ed for fire rating then the gaps get fire caulked.

Are they really looking for the grout as a bond with the precast?
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Old 01-19-2010, 08:16 PM   #13
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Re: Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


framer just a answer to your response after mine. i worked for a commerical building company for 5 years before i started roofing full time with my step father... just to stop any confusion.. and all the frames ive installed were in walls that were formed up and poured not block so i was the one installing the door and then grouting them in.
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Old 01-21-2010, 07:33 PM   #14
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Re: Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


UPDATE.. the sleeve anchors I submitted for approval have been shot down. Now they are saying I need to use a 3/8" x 6" tapcon type screw. I have spoke with a couple of locals that have done just what I am about to do and the general consensus is that I am in for a pain in the azz. I am now teetering back towards grouting after the fact so the jamb will stay solid to the precast wall.

I am thinking of trying to find somebody local (with proper equipment) that will do the grout for me. If I can get grouting done for under 80 bucks a frame I should be fine.

JWilliams... How did you go about grouting? Pump? bags?? I am figuring 4 bags of grout per door and somebody that has done this tells me I will be waaay short. they say more like 10??? All I know to do is to use the figures the bag says on the side but have been told it will yield way less.
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Old 01-21-2010, 07:55 PM   #15
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Re: Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


10 bags of grout per door? No way. What size bags? And what size frames?

Last edited by mudpad; 01-21-2010 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 01-21-2010, 08:52 PM   #16
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Re: Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


7' x 40" doors... some 8" jambs some 7 inch.. I figured it at 4 bags per..
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Old 01-21-2010, 09:36 PM   #17
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Re: Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


40# bags? It wouldn't take long to figure it out. Mix up one bag and see how far it goes in a frame. I havent done the math but just guessing its closer to 4 bags than 10.

Usually the purpose of the grout is to lock the door in place, therefore would need to be done in place. I have a little hand grout pump that we use for this, but you need about a 1 inch hole to get it in on each side of the frame. We would usually set the frame, caulk the jambs if they are tight, let the caulk cure, then grout with the grout pump. If there are large gaps between the frame and the concrete you may have to clamp some plywood forms to the frames.
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Old 01-24-2010, 12:22 PM   #18
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Re: Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


Quote:
Originally Posted by cbfx3 View Post
UPDATE.. the sleeve anchors I submitted for approval have been shot down. Now they are saying I need to use a 3/8" x 6" tapcon type screw. I have spoke with a couple of locals that have done just what I am about to do and the general consensus is that I am in for a pain in the azz. I am now teetering back towards grouting after the fact so the jamb will stay solid to the precast wall.

I am thinking of trying to find somebody local (with proper equipment) that will do the grout for me. If I can get grouting done for under 80 bucks a frame I should be fine.

JWilliams... How did you go about grouting? Pump? bags?? I am figuring 4 bags of grout per door and somebody that has done this tells me I will be waaay short. they say more like 10??? All I know to do is to use the figures the bag says on the side but have been told it will yield way less.

I have set several hundred HMF and i always use Tapcons set up with two Hiltis one to drill and one to drive no problem at all. Then we usally pump the frame full
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Old 01-24-2010, 02:07 PM   #19
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Re: Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


have Set a few metal jams in precast concrete . i have always drilled a hole above door frame in concrete to fill jam. i dont think eather anchor you yous will matter after grout is aplyed it always takes more than i think , Door will need to be caulked in to place to keep grout in the door. good luck
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Old 01-25-2010, 08:03 PM   #20
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Re: Hollow Metal Frame In Precast Concrete Opening Tips


If you are going to grout them in after they are installed, make sure you have a couple of spreaders in the frame. If the grout guy isn't really paying attention, he can cause the frame to bow out just enough to really cause you grief.

Depending on how tight the specs are, and what else is going on on the job, we have appropiated a couple wheelbarrow loads of concrete and started filling frames (one side at a time) while other concrete work is going on.

Usually a couple of adult beverages takes care of the material cost.

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