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Color Scaling On Overlay

 
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Old 11-22-2010, 04:17 PM   #1
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Color Scaling On Overlay


Hey guys. In Nov 2009 I had a sub install a stamped overlay, which was then sealed with Sonneborn Kure n Seal 25 LV (which was thinned) at time of application. After 6 months color spots started to flake off, and were subsequently informed that this is due to "lack of maintanence" of the sealer, and that there is no warranty on sealer. The customer and myself have concerns relating to his suggested "solution" which is to restain the spots that have flaked off and reseal. Would you be so kind as to review the photos and weigh in?

Color Scaling on Overlay-img_1937-1.jpg

Color Scaling on Overlay-img_1938.jpg

Color Scaling on Overlay-img_1946.jpg
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Old 11-29-2010, 07:00 PM   #2
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Re: Color Scaling On Overlay


Would really love to hear from you experts out there. Or ANYONE for that matter...

So far I've heard from the sealer manufacturer that 6 months is a very short time period to expect this sort of issue due to sealer failure/lack of maintenance. The rep for the Kure n Seal 25 LV sealer was concerned that the overlay product may have been Gypsum based, indicated by the chaulky appearance, which is subject to water absorption and continued future problems.

Your input regarding the best permanent fix for this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Many Thanks.

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Old 11-29-2010, 07:55 PM   #3
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Re: Color Scaling On Overlay


What stamped overlay system did you use? I have used 4 different brands and they all have different ways of doing things. My first suspect would be, you didn't get all the liquid release off, causing the sealer not to stick. How did you antique it? It's hard to trouble shoot without details of how it was intalled.
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Old 12-01-2010, 04:19 PM   #4
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Re: Color Scaling On Overlay


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What stamped overlay system did you use? I have used 4 different brands and they all have different ways of doing things. My first suspect would be, you didn't get all the liquid release off, causing the sealer not to stick. How did you antique it? It's hard to trouble shoot without details of how it was intalled.
CaliDesigns, thanks so much for you response! It is great to hear from you.

The sub used EliteCrete stamped overlay with release sprayed on in the form of suspended solution before stamping. Does this help?
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Old 12-01-2010, 05:02 PM   #5
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Re: Color Scaling On Overlay


I think I'd start with trying to re-stain those areas, but I'd be a little concerned that there will be more spots as time goes on.

So many variables, it is hard to speculate as to what happened. If the overlay itself is still good, you would sure lean toward something with the sealer.
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Old 12-01-2010, 05:47 PM   #6
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Re: Color Scaling On Overlay


Did you shot blast before overlay? Did you run a ph test also? Why would you cut a 25% sealer? To save money?
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Old 12-01-2010, 05:55 PM   #7
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Re: Color Scaling On Overlay


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I think I'd start with trying to re-stain those areas, but I'd be a little concerned that there will be more spots as time goes on.

So many variables, it is hard to speculate as to what happened. If the overlay itself is still good, you would sure lean toward something with the sealer.
Hey dprimc, good to hear from you. You've hit the issue on the head. If the overlay is still good then it will be a reasonably clean fix. However, the issue gets worse as time passes, and I'm concerned that any "stain and seal solution" would simply be a temporary fix (if that), and the real issue would continue to cause problems down the road. Any thoughts on how to validate the soundness of the overlay? I've heard that if it is "chaulky" then it may be difficult to resolve.
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Old 12-01-2010, 05:56 PM   #8
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Re: Color Scaling On Overlay


The problem with staining the concrete overlay is that there is a sealer still on it, I dont think this is a quick fix. You would need to strip sealer or try to re -emulsify the sealer with xylene and spray the same sealer with some color release to match.
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Old 12-01-2010, 06:05 PM   #9
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Re: Color Scaling On Overlay


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Did you shot blast before overlay? Did you run a ph test also? Why would you cut a 25% sealer? To save money?
Concrete Mike, good questions... The sub did not shot blast, but did power-wash prior to application of the overlay. There was no ph test prior to application to my knowledge - is this a common procedure? There were 2 surfaces that were installed at the same time, one on a walkway in the sun, and one under cover on a rear patio. They are different colors, and both exhibit the same problem, with the sunny location exhibiting faster deterioration.
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Old 12-01-2010, 06:07 PM   #10
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Re: Color Scaling On Overlay


It is hard to speculate on the problem but it looks like the sealer failed and or efflorescence.
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Old 12-01-2010, 06:10 PM   #11
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Re: Color Scaling On Overlay


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Concrete Mike, good questions... The sub did not shot blast, but did power-wash prior to application of the overlay. There was no ph test prior to application to my knowledge - is this a common procedure? There were 2 surfaces that were installed at the same time, one on a walkway in the sun, and one under cover on a rear patio. They are different colors, and both exhibit the same problem, with the sunny location exhibiting faster deterioration.
Concrete might have been still damp, that is why I run a ph test, before install. A ph test should be done prior to all overlay system. It is also possible that the release was not removed enough (75%).

Last edited by CONCRETE MIKE; 12-01-2010 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 12-01-2010, 06:12 PM   #12
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Re: Color Scaling On Overlay


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The problem with staining the concrete overlay is that there is a sealer still on it, I dont think this is a quick fix. You would need to strip sealer or try to re -emulsify the sealer with xylene and spray the same sealer with some color release to match.
Good point, but perhaps this would be quicker than grinding and reapplying the overlay. Or would it? BTW, how do Xylene and Acetone differ in such applications?
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Old 12-01-2010, 06:26 PM   #13
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Re: Color Scaling On Overlay


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Good point, but perhaps this would be quicker than grinding and reapplying the overlay. Or would it? BTW, how do Xylene and Acetone differ in such applications?
The xylene will re-emulsify your sealer to its original state
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Old 12-01-2010, 07:34 PM   #14
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Re: Color Scaling On Overlay


I have had this happen before.. It was the type of sealer i was using... You can restain the spots then apply a kure and seal 30.. 2 coats and it will be fine.. the 25 just doesn't seem to hold up as well with the stain applications and overlays especially if you are thinning it.. the 30 will go right over the 25.. just make sure its good, clean, and dry.. Haven't had any problems...
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Old 12-02-2010, 07:16 AM   #15
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Re: Color Scaling On Overlay


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I have had this happen before.. It was the type of sealer i was using... You can restain the spots then apply a kure and seal 30.. 2 coats and it will be fine.. the 25 just doesn't seem to hold up as well with the stain applications and overlays especially if you are thinning it.. the 30 will go right over the 25.. just make sure its good, clean, and dry.. Haven't had any problems...
A 30% solid is better than a 25%, I agree. The reason the sealer failed is most likely from water trapped under it or release was not removed enough. But you are also correct don't cut the sealer, that is a dumb move. It is all speculation. I would call the overlay system rep and ask for advice.

Last edited by CONCRETE MIKE; 12-02-2010 at 07:25 AM.
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Old 12-03-2010, 05:49 PM   #16
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Re: Color Scaling On Overlay


Too much brainstorming for a common and usually simple problem, it looks like the sealer came off and took the release with it, lightly powerwash, let dry completely, antique/estain and reseal. If down the road more problems arise, then you tackle them, not before.
The idea that a ph test is always needed before an overlay installation is wrong, we've always used Butterfield Color T-1000 and never heard of such test, in most cases, all you need is just a good surface prep; and even though it could still fail, the manufacturers give you no useful warranty,liability it's all in the mason's shoulders.
Good Luck!
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Old 12-06-2010, 12:17 AM   #17
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Re: Color Scaling On Overlay


Wow, you guys are great! Many thanks to CR2 and Stampit, for your sensible suggestions that this is a fairly mainstream issue with a straight forward solution - I was beginning to think otherwise, but now have confidence that the light at the end of the tunnel is not a train!! . Concrete Mike you've succeeded in embarrasing me a bit by pointing out that I've overlooked the obvious - call the Manufacturer. I won't hold it against you though - Great Call... and one I plan to make.

Is Butterfield T-1000 color a good one then, or do I need to worry about compatabiliy with existing? Is this a release, or...? I think they carry Butterfield at MPI.

One more question given concerns about sealer. It seems that the higher the solids content, the better... can I ever go too high?

Thanks again Guys (actually I'm only sure that "Mike" is a guy...)
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Old 12-06-2010, 06:58 PM   #18
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Re: Color Scaling On Overlay


You're welcome Kevin, I'm a guy too and no, T-1000 is not color is the stampable overlay system from Butterfield Color and it's really a good product (like everything the offer); you might want to use the same release that was use on your patio, just so you are consistent with the existing color shades; regarding the sealer, I would not worry much about compatibility if you have now a solvent base( I'm 99% sure you do) and no you cannot go too high, because they only make them 30%-35% which is not too high, unless you use a 100% solids polyaspartic polyurea, which is not recommended for outside applications and is cost prohibited too , at least on regular stamped concrete.
Good Luck!
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Old 12-06-2010, 07:56 PM   #19
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Re: Color Scaling On Overlay


No problem Kevin simple fix...
Good Luck!

Last edited by Stamp it; 12-06-2010 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 12-06-2010, 10:32 PM   #20
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Re: Color Scaling On Overlay


If it is too cost prohibative, you don't have the right clientele

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