Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?) - Painting & Finish Work - Contractor Talk

Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?)

 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-24-2016, 05:11 PM   #1
Banger of Nails
 
Dullers's Avatar
 
Trade: General Contractor
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Vermont
Posts: 17
Rewards Points: 66

Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?)


Hi All,

Renovation carpenter/general with decent paint experience here. I normally hire my regular paint crew to do anything more than a little trim or a single room.
I think I'm struggling with primer adhesion. Can anyone weigh in and give me peace-of-mind that my paint will stick?

Surface: Vinyl "wallpaper" thoroughly glued to luan plywood wallboard
Primer: Zinsser CoverStain, oil
Paint: SW SuperPaint

Surface: Cabinets, various. Veneer, manufactured wood, etc.
Primer: SW Extreme Bond, latex
Paint: SW ProClassic

The cabinets are more concerning than the walls, but I'm curious on your input with both. I just did the tape/fingernail test today and it's been 48 hours since application. Temps are decent in the 50's/60's during the day.

The oil on walls still feels soft-ish, but doesn't seem to be flaking off. "Failed" the tape test. Does scrape off with a fingernail pressed hard enough. Didn't sand walls. Did clean with Simple Green.

The latex on cabinets bunched/streaked in one spot where I think I missed with my scuff-sand, medium grit sponges. Cleaned with Simple Green.

Not looking for the highest end finish (otherwise my paint crew would be stripping, spraying, etc).
Just looking for it to not flake & peel off in 6-12 months

Thx guys!

Cabinet Pics:






Wall Pics:



Cabinet Scratch Test

Cabinet Tape Test

Wall Scratch & Tape Test

Last edited by Dullers; 12-24-2016 at 05:13 PM.
Dullers is offline  

Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ContractorTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

   

Advertisement

 

Old 12-24-2016, 05:27 PM   #2
Member
 
Gumshoe's Avatar
 
Trade: Painter
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Eastern Ohio
Posts: 86
Rewards Points: 128

Re: Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?)


I like to avoid cleaners before priming. Even the no rinse cleaners like Soilax scare me. Any, and I mean any residue can be problematic. Sanding and removing the dust with plain warm water is what I normally do. Your primer selection is spot on. Topcoats as well. I will say that today's paint formulas really take some time to harden up to pass the fingernail test or the tape test. I've had coatings in the past fail for a week or so before the paint finally hardened up and cured enough to be acceptable. Just a few thoughts.......

Advertisement

Gumshoe is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Gumshoe For This Useful Post:
Dullers (12-24-2016), PRP (12-24-2016)
Old 12-24-2016, 05:34 PM   #3
Banger of Nails
 
Dullers's Avatar
 
Trade: General Contractor
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Vermont
Posts: 17
Rewards Points: 66

Re: Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?)


First post... did you register just now to respond? Thanks!! That's reassuring - I appreciate the input. Noted on the cleaner. A good water-and-rag wipedown would probably be fine, unless there's grime in the kitchen/bath.

Happy holidays!
Dullers is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-24-2016, 05:46 PM   #4
Member
 
PRP's Avatar
 
Trade: Painting Contractor
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 40
Rewards Points: 132

Re: Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?)


Give it more time. Full cure time for oil is around 3 weeks and acrylics take 4 weeks. You mention daytime temps, is this place getting cold at night?
PRP is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to PRP For This Useful Post:
Dullers (12-24-2016)
Old 12-24-2016, 05:50 PM   #5
Pro
 
We Fix Houses's Avatar
 
Trade: Remodeling / Carpentry
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 1,812
Rewards Points: 2,470

Re: Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?)


For me Cover Stain OB has always exceeded expectations. I'd let it dry into the 3 rd day, see if it hardens up.

Just re-read. Simple Green can cause all sorts of problems. Hard to think 30:1 would do any serious cleaning ? So we put in more...right ? 1 oz to 30 oz is a good start. Must rinse with water ! Completely.

That 3 rd pic is contamination or grease ?

Any future spot or re-prime use BIN shellac based.
We Fix Houses is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to We Fix Houses For This Useful Post:
Dullers (12-24-2016)
Old 12-24-2016, 06:49 PM   #6
Pro
 
Ohio painter's Avatar
 
Trade: Painting and wallpaper
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 1,573
Rewards Points: 2,958

Re: Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?)


I think you are spot on with your primers and finish paint. I would say give it more time to cure. As far a prep you can't go wrong with it getting it clean dry and dull.
Ohio painter is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ohio painter For This Useful Post:
Dullers (12-25-2016), VinylHanger (12-24-2016)
Old 12-24-2016, 07:44 PM   #7
Pro
 
VinylHanger's Avatar
 
Trade: I'll do that for 500 bucks.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Oregon
Posts: 10,632
Rewards Points: 12,940

Re: Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?)


Single Green leaves a residue, doesn't it? I use no-rinse TSP substitute and wipe it down and get the extra off.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
__________________
Your emergency does not constitute a problem with my Constitution.
VinylHanger is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to VinylHanger For This Useful Post:
Dullers (12-25-2016)
Old 12-24-2016, 09:22 PM   #8
Member
 
Gumshoe's Avatar
 
Trade: Painter
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Eastern Ohio
Posts: 86
Rewards Points: 128

Re: Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dullers View Post
First post... did you register just now to respond? Thanks!! That's reassuring - I appreciate the input. Noted on the cleaner. A good water-and-rag wipedown would probably be fine, unless there's grime in the kitchen/bath.

Happy holidays!
I'm an old-timer over on the DIY and Painttalk forums. Entering my 39th year in the painting biz.
Gumshoe is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Gumshoe For This Useful Post:
Dullers (12-25-2016), hdavis (12-24-2016)
Old 12-25-2016, 01:12 AM   #9
Pro
 
Caslon's Avatar
 
Trade: State Licensed Painting Contractor
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: So. California
Posts: 1,175
Rewards Points: 1,366

Re: Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dullers View Post
Hi All,


I think I'm struggling with primer adhesion. Can anyone weigh in and give me peace-of-mind that my paint will stick?
Wall areas don't get the wear and tear trim does. I would have saved myself some brain cells and used Zinsser's water based Bullseye 123, which would have adhered better than Cover Stain, which is used for exterior wood. As for the cabinets, if they have a lacquer type finish on them, that primer should stick ok. Just touch up nicks that will happen. For maximum hardness and adhesion, I would have used an oil based specialty primer such as XIM or a pigmented shellac.

Give the Cover Stain time to harden. It may still fail the tape test, but walls aren't subject to nicks as much as trim.

Last edited by Caslon; 12-25-2016 at 01:28 AM.
Caslon is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Caslon For This Useful Post:
Dullers (12-25-2016)
Old 12-25-2016, 10:39 AM   #10
Pro
 
Philament's Avatar
 
Trade: Whatever the customer wants
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Ottawa, ON
Posts: 1,191
Rewards Points: 2,236

Re: Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?)


I have no idea, but I'm giving two thumbs up for most detailed description of a problem.
Philament is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Philament For This Useful Post:
Dullers (12-25-2016)
Old 12-25-2016, 10:51 AM   #11
Pro
 
avenge's Avatar
 
Trade: Remodeling
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Not here
Posts: 3,209
Rewards Points: 298

Re: Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?)


With temps in the 50's and 60's it's going to take longer to cure, paint can take weeks to cure. I think you're fine with the chosen primers when prepped properly but I would have chosen something other than Simple Green.
avenge is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to avenge For This Useful Post:
Dullers (12-25-2016)
Old 12-25-2016, 11:36 AM   #12
Banger of Nails
 
Dullers's Avatar
 
Trade: General Contractor
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Vermont
Posts: 17
Rewards Points: 66

Re: Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?)


Thanks for all the responses! I appreciate you all taking time out of your holiday to weigh in.

Sounds like the general consensus is Simple Green was a poor choice and I'm expecting too much adhesion within only a few days, especially with the lower outside temps we have right now.

Given all your input, I feel pretty confident moving forward with how it's behaving so far and some minor adjustments. Thanks again and Merry Christmas!
Dullers is offline  
Old 12-25-2016, 11:50 AM   #13
Banger of Nails
 
Dullers's Avatar
 
Trade: General Contractor
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Vermont
Posts: 17
Rewards Points: 66

Re: Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?)


Quote:
Originally Posted by PRP View Post
Give it more time. Full cure time for oil is around 3 weeks and acrylics take 4 weeks. You mention daytime temps, is this place getting cold at night?
Gotcha. Thx! It is getting cold at night yes. 30's & 40's at night. 50's & 60's in the day. I'm in Central Coastal California right now. Palo Alto area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by We Fix Houses View Post
For me Cover Stain OB has always exceeded expectations. I'd let it dry into the 3 rd day, see if it hardens up.

Just re-read. Simple Green can cause all sorts of problems. Hard to think 30:1 would do any serious cleaning ? So we put in more...right ? 1 oz to 30 oz is a good start. Must rinse with water ! Completely.

That 3 rd pic is contamination or grease ?

Any future spot or re-prime use BIN shellac based.
Switching to water for sure. I think that streaking in the 3rd pic is from either the Simple Green residue, or I just missed scuffing/dulling that area with my sanding.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gumshoe View Post
I'm an old-timer over on the DIY and Painttalk forums. Entering my 39th year in the painting biz.
Right on! 39 years, wow. Thanks for your input

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caslon View Post
Wall areas don't get the wear and tear trim does. I would have saved myself some brain cells and used Zinsser's water based Bullseye 123, which would have adhered better than Cover Stain, which is used for exterior wood. As for the cabinets, if they have a lacquer type finish on them, that primer should stick ok. Just touch up nicks that will happen. For maximum hardness and adhesion, I would have used an oil based specialty primer such as XIM or a pigmented shellac.

Give the Cover Stain time to harden. It may still fail the tape test, but walls aren't subject to nicks as much as trim.
I used the oil based on the walls because I was worried about water based or other products loosening up the vinyl "wallpaper" glue. It's not common, but I've seen it happen. Particularly with topcoats/paints.
It does STINK though. Yikes.

Thanks for the advice. I'm not too far in at this point that I couldn't change products. I honestly haven't used SW Extreme Bond before. My SW rep recommended it. He said a lot of guys have been using it lately and had good success. I considered using the CoverStain on the cabinets too, since I've already got the oil going.
I would have to eat one can as I've already opened it.


Edit: I read over on PaintTalk.com forums a theory that SW's Extreme Bond is basically a ripoff/takeoff of 123 primer. Not sure what merit it has, but I wouldn't be surprised. 123 is my go to one-size-fits all primer.

Last edited by Dullers; 12-25-2016 at 11:54 AM.
Dullers is offline  
Old 12-26-2016, 06:43 PM   #14
Member
 
PNW Painter's Avatar
 
Trade: Painter
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 32
Rewards Points: 70

Re: Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?)


I've never had Adhesion issues with CoverStain and I've yet to use SW Extreme Bond. I'm guessing that the simple green is the likely issue, but the low temps will extend the cure time as well. Try running some fans.

I've also had great luck using Krud Kutter Deglosser to clean cabinets before they're sanded. For the final wiped own I just use a little bit of water.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
PNW Painter is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to PNW Painter For This Useful Post:
Dullers (12-26-2016)
Old 12-26-2016, 08:59 PM   #15
Banger of Nails
 
Dullers's Avatar
 
Trade: General Contractor
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Vermont
Posts: 17
Rewards Points: 66

Re: Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?)


I've gotta get on the Krud Kutter train. I see a lot of guys with it.
I need a couple sundries tmrw anyways. I'll grab a spray bottle and give it a go.
The deglosser can't hurt with my cabinet refinish!
Cheers
Dullers is offline  
Old 12-27-2016, 04:07 PM   #16
Pro
 
sparehair's Avatar
 
Trade: Painting, flooring
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Portland, Or
Posts: 820
Rewards Points: 1,482

Re: Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?)


Dry times double every ten degress below seventy. So if your at 50 at night, dry time to powder on the oil would be four days.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
sparehair is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to sparehair For This Useful Post:
Dullers (12-27-2016)
Old 12-27-2016, 04:47 PM   #17
Banger of Nails
 
Dullers's Avatar
 
Trade: General Contractor
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Vermont
Posts: 17
Rewards Points: 66

Re: Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?)


That's a great rule of thumb
I like it, Thanks!
Dullers is offline  
Old 12-27-2016, 07:50 PM   #18
Pro
 
avenge's Avatar
 
Trade: Remodeling
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Not here
Posts: 3,209
Rewards Points: 298

Re: Primer Failing Adhesion/tape/fingernail Test(?)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dullers View Post
That's a great rule of thumb
I like it, Thanks!
Don't know if that helps you any, your issue is cure time not dry time. Besides the only oil you used was Cover Stain that doesn't take 8 hours to dry, it takes 7 days for full adhesion/cure at 70 to 80 degrees.

Advertisement

avenge is offline  


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Carpenter Test BuiltByMAC Decks & Fencing 98 05-15-2017 07:14 AM
Primer for poplar builtins PBanks Painting & Finish Work 4 09-09-2016 11:50 AM
high build primer? 18delta Specialty Coatings 7 05-31-2016 07:40 PM
SW Multi-Purpose Primer instock Painting & Finish Work 5 11-12-2015 12:04 PM
New Primer was really bad! JenniferTemple Painting & Finish Work 14 11-02-2011 07:05 PM

Join Now... It's Fast and FREE!

I am a professional contractor
I am a DIY Homeowner
Drywall Talk is for
PROFESSIONAL CONTRACTORS ONLY!

At DrywallTalk.com we cater exlusivly to professional contractors who make their living as a contractor. Knowing that many homeowners and DIYers are looking for a community to call home, we've created www.DIYChatroom.com DIY Chatroom is full of helpful advices and perfect for DIY homeowners.

Redirecing in 10 seconds
No Thanks
terms of service

Already Have an Account?